I was wondering if you could reconcile something for me. Ramana and all the
advaita sages always said that consciousness is never born or nor dies---
but how come consciousness can't even survive deep sleep? How then is it
supposed to survive death?


Ramana also said deathless is our true nature. But a completely nodual
experience is essentially akin to deep dreamless sleep? I often wonder if
enlightenment is just a soul/spirit suicide as being a true nondual state is
"I would say from my limited experience"deep dreamless sleep.

Even abiding as consciousness while awake has attributes and qualities,
etc...

I have spoken to well known Advaitans and Ahats who seem to echo the
sentiment that emptiness is the fundamental reality and at the end of our
journey we return to and become empty, shunyata, extinction, annihilation.
Essentially cease. 

It seems that from the Buddhist and advaita perspective end game is eternal nothingness even the word nirvana means "to existinguish"

As I would meditate and move beyond my sense of individuality I would keep bumping up to his and could never get any resolve. I know that it's the ego that is looking for resolution etc etc but it still feels like a worthwhile discussion. What exactly is end game if there is such a thing.

Deep sleep is conditioned by causes and is therefore impermanent.  You have to ask yourself, "Empty of what?"  Emptiness is a construct, not the nature of things.  The nature of things is unconditioned. 
 
As a point of information, nirvana translates as the blowing out of the flames of the three root defilements, that is, ignorance, craving and ill will.

Given reincarnation, there is no end game so, the point becomes what kind of karma do we want to inherit and "Chop wood.  Carry water."

I suggest running your thoughts past your discernment or surrendering them to Goddess and asking for insights.

Hello oolongmonkey,

Sigmund has already provided some valuable insights. I will add to that.

Non-duality is not something to be understood or apprehended since that implies a separation of knower, knowing, and knowable.

Ramana is a path-breaker in modern spiritual revolution - esp. concerning advaita. In his own words, he had a 'death experience' at the age of 16 where he became aware of a 'current' or 'force' (Tamil word: ஆவேசம் - aavesam) which he recognised as his true "I" or "self". Ramana did not provide any specific theological or philosophical lectures although he did answer questions from his students and visitors. When asked for spiritual instructions, he said 'சும்மா இரு' (summar iru) - a colloquial Tamil phrase that can be interpreted as 'Be still' or 'Be quiet' or 'Be silent'.

Lots of people have written about their lived experience with Ramana. You can find books and online resources if you're interested in that. Ramana's instruction was simple and clear: சும்மா இரு - summa iru

----

I want to share the below long excerpt since I think it may be relevant to your post here.

Quote"In the common thought of today, God, universe and individual are usually considered, where they are considered at all, as opposites, as discontinuous--neither sharing a common ground not taking part in any common being. The brunt of Western theology, and the cultural consciousness to which it has contributed, conceive of God as so transcending the universe and the individual that the l;atter two come to be seen as contingent products of an arbitrary divine creativity, an afterthought to Trinitarian self-sufficiency.
In severing the immediate and ontological link between the divine and the human, this kind of theological imagination has divorced the individual from a sense of his or her immediate continuity both with the divine and with the universe. The individual is cut adrift in an atomistic, unrelated cosmos emptied of any unifying or communion-making divine ground. The consequence is one of alienation in which the individual, dubiously gifted with self-consciousness, looks out, from a self-enclosed and lonely isolation, upon the immensities of an alien universe, peopled by equally isolated fellow human beings, and somewhere, by a God who presides from beyond over a multiplicity which proceeds from his hands but is divested of his being.
In this view individual, universe and God remain strangers in principle, and the approach of any of the three to the others needs vbean experience of invasion, intrusion, manipulation or, in the case of God, omnipotent coercion...
In response to the perhaps too bleak description of modern consciousness I have drawn in my opening paragraph, I will concentrate on those features of Jung's thought which contend that the maturational telos of the human psyche is toward a state of consciousness in which the individual draws progressively nearer to an inner source, at once the source of all consciousness and so of whatever meaning exists in the universe.
In this process the individual comes to a more residual experience of that point at which one's personal being intersects with the divine, and through it with all that is and can be in the human and natural world. This process of self-discovery entails the discovery of one's native divinity, experienced as a greater appropriation of one's personal wholeness. This experience inevitably carries with it an intensified compassion for the totality beyond one's person, because through it the individual approaches within the source of the all beyond. In addition, such an experience can heal the wounds inflicted on our collective Western consciousness by our mainstream theological imagination, which sees God, universe and individual as totally separable and so authors that alienation which must result when centers of consciousness face each other as "wholly other."
For Jung this state of consciousness is approached at the end of a long and arduous work upon oneself. It is a work that centers on the dialogue between the ego and that autonomous power which, in his view, transcends the ego and gives both birth and rebirth to it, that is, the power of the unconscious. Sometimes the dialogue is undertaken voluntarily. Sometimes it is forced upon the ego when it lives too far from, or actually opposes, the wholeness of the personality proferred to it by the Self. But wherever the dialogue is begun and followed through, it works to center the individual by relating him or her to all the reaches of a fuller personal realization and, in so doing, relates the centered individual to the full reaches of humanity itself."
~ John. P. Dourely [Love, Celibacy, and the Inner Marriage]

 These are all good responses.

  Jerry Katz used to post a lot of non duality Adivata stuff on k list, so did Harsha but I managed to annoy them enough they went off and started their own lists, one became nonduality.org and the other harshasatsangh.

  Because really, does all that scholarly stuff really explain anything in practical terms?

  Hands on direct experience things. That is my gig.

  Get deeply grounded, sit  quiet and observe your thoughts and feelings as they arise without getting involved in them. The zen sit thing. Very difficult for ADD people...

  Give it about 10 minutes, stay grounded.

  Now poke at the experience curiously. Who is observing the thoughts?
  You are aware that the part that sits in back of your mind quiet watcher ... try to get a good look at that part of yourself? Try to push it forward into your mental view... you cannot. Try to sneak behind it for a glimpse... does not work either. Like you have hit the ground zero base level and there is nothing behind it.

  Notice, do any of the thoughts come *from* that place? Any sense that it reacts to what it sees?
  How  does it see things differently from the usual ego view?

  Notice how when you are being that, the thoughts themselves seem empty. Without a response or reaction they lose importance.

   When you try to get a handle on the silent watcher in the back of your mind, there is only emptiness... yet it is consciousness! That is what they are talking about, what remains when ego expires. The nondual emptiness observer in the back of your mind, is the Self and it is nothingness, yet conscious.

  It is important to keep in mind, these are Buddhists and believe in reincarnation, and I mostly don't. Time and space do not exist, you are All that Is... past lives and any concept of linearity or progression fall out the window in non duality.  Buddhists  seek to become "free from birth" because apparently being alive sucks hairy moose cocks, with all the pain and suffering and they want out. 

  FST takes a more pagan view, that to be alive and have a body is Goddess greatest gift to us and we honour that gift by enjoying it. Grow a vajra diamond body so you can continue to party with the embodied long after our own flesh is dust.  We put more focus on the will of the Soul, it chose your parents and selected your DNA according to the storyboard of your dharma. Soul chose to put on a body and do the being alive gig for its own purposes and we try to align with that, as it is expressed through discernment and the DB. Soul  is joy, way more fun than the emptiness unless your goal is to escape incarnating.

 

 


 

Thank you all and thank you Mystress for your replies.

I've had my spat with non-duality before the K-awakening.

Prior to K, There was an intellectual recognition of pure consciousness and i worked tirelessly to abide as "that", moment to moment, day after day for years. Studied Ramana and Nisargadatta tirelessly.  I would also do formal retreats and I would just surrender into "it".

I guess I kinda came to the point of "so what"? It's nothing and "if I continue to stay and be thing nothing, then at death this nothing consciousness will merge into the big nothing consciousness and then what, what's the draw? No more existence, no joy, no love, the drop goes into the ocean, game over." This at times created fear(As a child I was always terrified of not existing, I would be afraid to go to sleep because I was afraid I would not wake up---so this is a bit of an ancient thing for "me")

Upon my awakening--I became too ungrounded and could no longer just "abide as that" as I would get so absorbed by the void I would disconnect completely from my "me/personality" and I could hardly function.

I started studying more of the occult, I was introduced to Mystress's teachings, Gurdjieff, Kundalini---there was talk of bliss, of love, of the soul and I was drawn towards this.

So, Mystress are you saying that different individuals will have different ultimate/absolute destinies based on their karma/actions/desires/etc?

How does one grow a Vajra Diamond body? Just continuing with your practices? Is this different then a soul? I know many of the occult souls talk about developing and creating one's soul in this life, etc...

"Soul  is joy, way more fun than the emptiness unless your goal is to escape incarnating." -----I couldnt agree more! My question is who gets soul and who gets emptiness at death?

Sorry if this is getting to heady:)

Thank you all for your correspondence!

Hello oolongmonkey,

Did you try Mystress' suggestion?

Intellect belongs to the ego. One cannot arrive at non-duality through logical reasoning.
Over the years, I have observed that instructions from ascended masters are always simple, direct, and demand complete engagement. Students and followers end up making belief systems out of the Master's direct experience (the Sanskrit word jnana). Jesus said 'Love thy neighbor' and we now have people killing each other because of disagreements about Bible verses. Ramana said 'Be silent' and his followers have written volumes trying to explain their experience of silence in his presence.

It's very difficult to talk about non-duality. Let me try an analogy. No matter how many books I read about how to swim, I will never be able to actually know what it means to swim unless I jump into the pool. Nonduality and enlightenment is sort of like that. You can read everything under the sun and still have no clue because nonduality is about direct experience. Collecting information, reading others experience, intellectual knowing, and philosophizing does not help much when it comes to internal growth. Being in the presence of an ascended Master helps to some extent but non-duality cannot simply be transferred through a set of instructions or logical arguments.

FST is a DIY path. The lessons are structured by Mystress to provide seekers with fundamentals they would need for their journey. Everyone's journey is different and happens at a pace that Goddess wills. Tearoom provides support but the journey is undertaken by each individual and there is no substitute for direct experience.

You mention that you became too ungrounded. How are you now? Do you practice grounding 8 times a day and dump overload regularly?

Thank you Gopi for your reply. I appreciate it!

I had the ole "non dual awakening" many years prior to my K-awakening. I understand that the intellect cannot wrap it's hands around it as the intellect is the source of the confusion and concepts actually cloud the reality that we are at our essence pure, complete limitless consciousness. "The finger pointing to the moon is not the moon" I get all that.

During this period as I would constantly and consciously abide as "that" and go deeper and deeper into Samadhi it was just endless nothingness and I was nothing, all form was empty and emptiness was form, the experiencer and the experience were one of the same, gate gate paragate(Gone beyond, Gone altogether beyond....) Then what? The Buddhists seem to think Paranirvana is extinction as well as some advaitans.

And to answer your question, my practice of abiding as "pure consciousness" became impossible after kundalini due to my intense level of ungroundedness. After a couple years of doing the grounding exercise Mystress teaches I do feel much better. The only practice that feels safe for me is the grounding. Perhaps that will change in time after I energetically ground and integrate further.

Quote from: Mystress on Feb 28, 2019, 03:03:24 PM

FST takes a more pagan view, that to be alive and have a body is Goddess greatest gift to us and we honour that gift by enjoying it. Grow a vajra diamond body so you can continue to party with the embodied long after our own flesh is dust.


How does the Vajra Diamond Body accomplish escaping death? Takes residence in new body after the old one is gone? By incarnating again. To my understanding the diamond body is a permanent feature of existence. Like water. Forged from previous matter, like diamonds, transmuted into new matter. Or is it just an energetic body? Either way it manages to escape death. A Permanent feature of existence on some level.
Seems like it is more of an energetic body to me. Taking new form. New incarnations. Eternally aware of itself. Because it is everything.

 

 


 

 Lots of big questions.

  Prior to K, ... (!!!)
So, Mystress are you saying that different individuals will have different ultimate/absolute destinies based on their karma/actions/desires/etc?

 Yes. Different paths, even different types of meditation, different results.

Different Types Of Meditation Change Different Areas Of The Brain, Study Finds

In the first lessons you are introduced to matrifocal vs patriarchal spirituality, and chi based vs Shakti. Free will vs surrender to Divine Will. Of curse they lead to different places, and involve different experiences.  Escaping the body using control vs going deeper into it as your Guide. They don't all lead to the same results, experiences of consciousness.

 I am a fan of Ramana but I don't teach adivata or pranayama,  as you discovered, they are not compatible with awakened Kundalini. Awakening is a game changer, old stuff, especially stuff done to awaken k no longer works because it is an effort to control.  Most of those paths do not mention Kundalini, nor do they speak of Goddess' will because they are not having that experience of presence, as you also discovered. Most them speak of self realization but almost none speak of ascension because they do not lead to that.

 When you are deeply grounded and free from fear, in a state where questions in your mind get answers almost before you are done wondering, you are experiencing a state of self realization.  FST Starts with that! The big brass ring of most spiritual seeking... and then surrendering what ungrounds you makes it last.  

 "so what"? It's nothing and "if I continue to stay and be thing nothing, then at death this nothing consciousness will merge into the big nothing consciousness and then what, what's the draw? No more existence, no joy, no love, the drop goes into the ocean, game over."

 If Ramana really merged into nothing and disappeared then why does he show up when people invoke him with Guru worship?
You are  obsessing, trying to work it out to something ego can comprehend and it just can't, the mysteries remain mysterious to the logical mind.  You can be that, experience that, but the impossibility of intellectual understanding is why this training is about experiences. Trying to explain a zen koan in words to communicate the meaning does not work.  "The dharma that can be spoken of, is not the  Dharma." Try looking at the lives and experiences of those who are said to have attained.

 There is a photo of Ramana from the waist up, and he looks desiccated. The body becomes frail if you spend too much time out of it and his energy is all centered head and shoulders.  Lovely light behind his eyes but he is operating the body by remote control, not living in it and so no wonder his liver gave out from accumulating his seekers karma and leaving it unresolved toxic. Ramana really did not give two shits about his body. That sort of enlightenment via escapism is patriarchal, and Kundalini wants none of it. The energy goes up and then it goes back down bringing the higher insights into the here and now of being fully alive.

 We look to the body first, to the promptings of discernment to follow the path written into our very DNA, what Goddess designed.  

How does one grow a Vajra Diamond body? Just continuing with your practices? Is this different then a soul? I know many of the occult souls talk about developing and creating one's soul in this life, etc...

Soul means different things to different people and those who speak of it rarely define what they mean. Soul is spark of consciousness, the essence of your Divine self, it is eternally perfect, cannot be harmed, does not take on karma and does not need to evolve.  So right there, you know they must be talking about something else.

 Time and space are of the body: spirits, old Gods, ghosts, only experience time when in connection to a living person.  

With most people, the energy body dissipates after death. It is like the energy blueprint, the energetic wiring of the physical body and karma ego stuff appears as blockages in it, reflected as places of tension in the physical where energy flow is impaired. Quantum physics tells us that all matter is also made of energy, subatomic particles winking in and out of existence.
For most people, when their spirit goes into the light after death and experiences the unity, time stops for them. In non-duality, eternity and no time at all are the same. Nothing is lost because nothing is forgotten so when we call on them they appear and experience time through us.

 Most patriarchal paths, that is the goal, the focus on purifying the mind leaves the body behind.

 In the late 90s, ascension became a buzzword, the sequel to the Celestine prophecies came out, about ascension and there was a lot of crazy stuff written about it by people who were not themselves ascended... some of the bullshit got fatal with the heavens gate cult suicides and I opted out of being associated with the steaming mounds, by not using the word to describe FST... that it is written by a living ascended master is a big enough clue.

  The primary focus is smooth successful sane awakening experiences but it is also the most laser focused and successful ascension path in history. You can check that with your discernment. The difference between ascended and master is understanding it well enough to teach, to guide others. That is why I got tapped to find the path for vampires, my spiritual tech is high end.  

 The body-first process of surrender clears the karma from the energy body and the physical. As the flow of life force increases through the purification, the body vibration rises. The content of the ego and the blockages in the physical/ energy body are the same stuff, Reich described it as body armouring... tension in the muscles from the stress points of unresolved issues.  We do not escape the body, we bring it along with us on the path and at the point of purification where ego dissolves, the energy body is transubstantiated and becomes quantum. Vajra diamond body because it is imperishable like diamond, it does not dissipate at death.  It retains enough of the body-experience of time and space to be able to move in nondual spaces where neither exists. At the same time, being quantum, there is no sense of movement because you are already everything All that is Everywhere and where you experience yourself to be is whatever you focus on. You are still living in the same world but in a different vibrational universe where thoughts come true like everyday miracles. Carried by the flow.

 I think, what comes most to the core of your question is this assurance: Goddess is the muse. The dreams most deeply held and cherished, were inspired by Her in the first place, part of your dharma. Surrendering them you get your limited self out of the way so She can give them back, better. Surrender everything, some stuff that is really yours will come back, new and improved. To be nothing but a vessel of Divine will is a cool trip, ride along with the flow and enjoy it.  

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply to my post. It means the world to me.

Yes. Different paths, even different types of meditation, different results

So a Buddhist will disappear into emptiness, a yogi into Satchitananda, and a Christian will get their heaven?
 
You said...
With most people, the energy body dissipates after death. It is like the energy blueprint, the energetic wiring of the physical body and karma ego stuff appears as blockages in it, reflected as places of tension in the physical where energy flow is impaired. Quantum physics tells us that all matter is also made of energy, subatomic particles winking in and out of existence.
For most people, when their spirit goes into the light after death and experiences the unity, time stops for them. In non-duality, eternity and no time at all are the same. Nothing is lost because nothing is forgotten so when we call on them they appear and experience time through us.

So for the average person existence does cease upon their spirit merging into the light? The diamond body is a way in which once can maintain a sense of individuality on the other side? It serves as a vehicle of sorts?

I'm aware of the obsessive nature of my post;) Ever since I was a very small child I always thought about how precious existence was and had fears of non-existence.

With the issues I've been dealing with, some health issues and the loss of someone very close to me, existential thoughts have been pushed to the forefront. I'm constantly envisioning myself on my deathbed and thinking "did I do enough, where will I go, am I prepared to face death, what if I could have done more to ensure my transition, does existence continue?" etc, etc... I suppose what I am looking for is assurance that death is not oblivion, that enlightenment is not oblivion.

Anyways, thanks for allowing me to rant a bit and clearing some things for me:) You'll are beautiful and I'm grateful to have this platform and forum.

  Yes. Different paths, even different types of meditation, different results

So a Buddhist will disappear into emptiness, a yogi into Satchitananda, and a Christian will get their heaven?

  No, they all go to the same place they just use different terms for it.  I was mostly talking about the difference while alive.

  There is a difference if the culture believes in ancestor worship and not in ghosts going into the light... there you get a big uptick in annoying ghosts and increase in suicide rates.

  Death remains the great mystery. NDE studies have told us a lot, but they are all told by people who came back before dissolution... you can learn a little more from talking to ghosts and observing their experience or a lot more talking to dead ascended masters.


So for the average person existence does cease upon their spirit merging into the light? The diamond body is a way in which once can maintain a sense of individuality on the other side? It serves as a vehicle of sorts?

I'm aware of the obsessive nature of my post;) Ever since I was a very small child I always thought about how precious existence was and had fears of non-existence.

  They do not cease to exist! Nothing is lost, nothing is forgotten. They cease to experience TIME. Press pause on the player: time stops for them. Lemniscate and zero are the same in non-duality. Eternity and no time at all, are the same. Individuality and unity, are the same. Logic cannot comprehend.

  Ego fears its dissolution and death. It always will. Part of its nature. This obsession is feeding ego.

  The experience of being nothing is actually, incredibly blissful, euphoric.
  You are identifying "I" as your ego and it isn't.  You have experienced ego-less states before, in meditation or witness state so you know there is an "I" that is not ego. You have plenty of examples of enlightened people and how they behave. Are they nothing?  Get out of your head and look around.

  Tibetan rosary beads (malas) are skull shaped because it is good to realize your time here is finite and to make the most of it. 

you can learn a little more from talking to ghosts and observing their experience or a lot more talking to dead ascended masters

I've become cynical about mediums/channeling and new age type stuff. IS there any channeled material you are fond of? A Course in Miracles, Ramtha, Abraham Hicks?

You are identifying "I" as your ego and it isn't.  You have experienced ego-less states before, in meditation or witness state so you know there is an "I" that is not ego. You have plenty of examples of enlightened people and how they behave. Are they nothing?  Get out of your head and look around.


Thank you Mystress!