It was never clear to me if affinity to dominance or submission is just something you have or you don´t- like how you are born in a female or male physical body (it´s just how it is),
or  if it is a choice, like you choose a job or a house.

What are your insights on this?

Iris

For a beginning we could start with 2 dogs

There is a recent boom of "Super-Nannys", dunno how they are called elsewhere.
In the first place for kids, in the 2nd for animals; have followed this on tv.

A typical german family, a couple and 2 dogs(both male).
One dog has become aggressive or has ever been.
Finally what the dog-Nanny finds out is, the aggressive dog is the sub the other calm one the dominant one. The "parents"(for heaven's sake they have no real kids) messed this however up and gave always priority to the aggressive sub.
Taking this into account, the problem was quickly solved.
A hint at the importance of D/s(and You understand asking interesting questions)

So long,

juergen(in submissive lowercase).(and an accentuating point)

: It was never clear to me if affinity to dominance or submission is just something you have or you don´t- like how you are born in a female or male physical body (it´s just how it is),
:  or  if it is a choice, like you choose a job or a house.

: What are your insights on this?

: Iris

:For a beginning we could start with 2 dogs

There is a recent boom of "Super-Nannys", dunno how they are called elsewhere.
In the first place for kids, in the 2nd for animals; have followed this on tv.

A typical german family, a couple and 2 dogs(both male).
One dog has become aggressive or has ever been.
Finally what the dog-Nanny finds out is, the aggressive dog is the sub the other calm one the dominant one. The "parents"(for heaven's sake they have no real kids) messed this however up and gave always priority to the aggressive sub.
Taking this into account, the problem was quickly solved.

***If I understand you right, it is about recognising if you are submissive or dominant (that would mean that the first statement would apply: It is just how it is) and then things will sort out by themselves.

: juergen(in submissive lowercase).(and an accentuating point)

*** I thought I was getting good at understanding subtleties in English, but now I doubt it... *grin*

Iris

: For a beginning we could start with 2 dogs

: There is a recent boom of "Super-Nannys", dunno how they are called elsewhere.
: In the first place for kids, in the 2nd for animals; have followed this on tv.

: A typical german family, a couple and 2 dogs(both male).
: One dog has become aggressive or has ever been.
: Finally what the dog-Nanny finds out is, the aggressive dog is the sub the other calm one the dominant one. The "parents"(for heaven's sake they have no real kids) messed this however up and gave always priority to the aggressive sub.
: Taking this into account, the problem was quickly solved.
: A hint at the importance of D/s(and You understand asking interesting questions)

: So long,

: juergen(in submissive lowercase).(and an accentuating point)

: : It was never clear to me if affinity to dominance or submission is just something you have or you don´t- like how you are born in a female or male physical body (it´s just how it is),
: :  or  if it is a choice, like you choose a job or a house.

: : What are your insights on this?

: : Iris

: ***If I understand you right, it is about recognising if you are submissive or dominant (that would mean that the first statement would apply: It is just how it is) and then things will sort out by themselves.

NO!

Is a D/s affinity fixed or tunable?
The 2 dog sample would suggest the former(=fixed)
The D and the s play-parts are absolutely definite.
Among dogs!

This doesn't bring us further, but i introduced it as a reference point for later discussion.
It is not uncommon to relate human psychologic problems to the animal kingdom, i think darwinism does largely so; behind this lies often the assumption that animals are good pure unspoiled.
So i started with this sample to see if this widespread assumption will hold true (i don't think so).
However most interesting: the disproving of the widespread assumption: aggressive=dominant.
---------
there are 2 categories of D/s now
1ly) in social hierachies e.g. hitler and his helpers and their helpers
2ly) erotic D/s
One difference is, that in (1ly), to be a sub comes down to be looser or not to be high enough, i.e. a matter of discontent; to be a D isn't either fun(mental retardation, see hitler, clinton etc.), while in (2ly) both is usually considered fun.
In (1ly) some people advance more, some less, however hard to tell if this is D- or s- related at all. Further there are examples of high-ranking men who are sexually submissive(to women) or such men who once had a high rank, but collapse completely when ousted. Or people of higher structure levels who seek life assistance from people without any acknowledged status at all(charismatic healers, Witches..) Obviously we are dealing with a pseudo-hierarchy, that doesn't earn the word hierarchy really.
In (2ly) we face a completely different situation;
no obscure, ambivalent hierarchy, but on the contrary: a person is either D or s.

Gender aspects; discord may arise about the question, if one gender is genuinely D or s, and who is what.
3 possibilities:
11) egality on the average: women s, women D, men s, men D
12) women D, men s; -->FD
13) men D, women s; -->MD

Thesis A: (12) is right
example1) (ongoing)female empowerment in tech-nations.

example2) Mystress who is a powerful highly consulted Female Dominant inspite of ADD and no degree like a Phd, and other adversities in Her bio.

example3) The woman has a tendency to topping from the bottom to the top;
The plot in the movie: L'empire des sens(in the realm of the senses; im reich der sinne), where a MD-romance turns FD and to the ritualistic castration and killing of the male partner.(1976) In Germany this film was first banned, then classified 'especially valuable' and released in 1978.
I have heard of more such cases(get across FD, however not necessarily with the subjugated sub's death)

example4) The woman has a tendency to keep the 'topping from the bottom'-male down, and stabilize the power-relation. I have never heard about a woman who would fall back into s: no compromise.

example5) me(smile). This sort D and s is not a Darwinistic category, it doesnt align with Darwinism (and Phd-wisdom) at all, who cannot accept paradoxes. But here we are 100% paradoxical, in so far, that men love to be subs; once this is accepted personally by women and men, and goes mainstream, it isn't even necessary that women go the whole length to violence in order to persist.

example6) according to the dog's intro, dominance is not aggressiveness, so, the less aggressive woman can still be dominant, which refutes a contradicting commonplace.

By this i tried to show, that D/s which has been handed down as MD is by far no fixed reality.
That there are clear tendencies with good grounds to an alternation of the status quo, toward an FD paradigm.
Corrective alternations in order to align with Goddess' flow is also the chief goal i'm considering why i'm in this course

: : juergen(in submissive lowercase).(and an accentuating point)

: *** I thought I was getting good at understanding subtleties in English, but now I doubt it... *grin*

grin accepted and returned

According to my outlandish ways it won't matter much if i express myself in Englisch or German;
But maybe can this post give You a clue to the 'subtleties'.
Finally i hope i went not too offtopic, although it was fun composing it, anyway.

smiles and much success!

juergen.

: :For a beginning we could start with 2 dogs

: There is a recent boom of "Super-Nannys", dunno how they are called elsewhere.
: In the first place for kids, in the 2nd for animals; have followed this on tv.

: A typical german family, a couple and 2 dogs(both male).
: One dog has become aggressive or has ever been.
: Finally what the dog-Nanny finds out is, the aggressive dog is the sub the other calm one the dominant one. The "parents"(for heaven's sake they have no real kids) messed this however up and gave always priority to the aggressive sub.
: Taking this into account, the problem was quickly solved.

: ***If I understand you right, it is about recognising if you are submissive or dominant (that would mean that the first statement would apply: It is just how it is) and then things will sort out by themselves.

: : juergen(in submissive lowercase).(and an accentuating point)

: *** I thought I was getting good at understanding subtleties in English, but now I doubt it... *grin*

: Iris

:
: : For a beginning we could start with 2 dogs

: : There is a recent boom of "Super-Nannys", dunno how they are called elsewhere.
: : In the first place for kids, in the 2nd for animals; have followed this on tv.

: : A typical german family, a couple and 2 dogs(both male).
: : One dog has become aggressive or has ever been.
: : Finally what the dog-Nanny finds out is, the aggressive dog is the sub the other calm one the dominant one. The "parents"(for heaven's sake they have no real kids) messed this however up and gave always priority to the aggressive sub.
: : Taking this into account, the problem was quickly solved.
: : A hint at the importance of D/s(and You understand asking interesting questions)

: : So long,

: : juergen(in submissive lowercase).(and an accentuating point)

: : : It was never clear to me if affinity to dominance or submission is just something you have or you don´t- like how you are born in a female or male physical body (it´s just how it is),
: : :  or  if it is a choice, like you choose a job or a house.

: : : What are your insights on this?

: : : Iris

  We are pack animals, we create hierarchies instinctively, and the higher purpose is teamwork: so many together can do more than one.
 One ox can pull 1000lbs, two oxen can pull 5000 lbs... but only if they are pulling in the same direction... one must lead.  The value of teamwork is exponential, not cumulative. 1+1= infinite: where two or more are gathered, Goddess is there.

 Everybody has a little bit of both, to be adaptable to need and circumstance, and an inborn preference, and/or cultural comfort zone for either end, or someplace in the middle.

 An interest in the kinky aspects tends to be part of one's sexual orientation, partly culture and partly nature.

 So, on the tribal level it is universal and functional - part of our DNA.  On the sexual-romantic level it is a matter of sexual orientation. Not so many people are into chains and leather, but you will find elements of D/s in most erotic literature, from porn to romance novels.
 All through nature, courtship rituals of sexual reproduction have a pursuer and a pursued. Most often it is some variation of the male trying to impress the female with his pretty shiny feathers and warm study nest.  Yoni rules the world.
  Blessings...

: It was never clear to me if affinity to dominance or submission is just something you have or you don´t- like how you are born in a female or male physical body (it´s just how it is),
:  or  if it is a choice, like you choose a job or a house.

: What are your insights on this?

: Iris

Thank You Mystress for giving Your wisdom in these supra-personal questions of hierarchies, because we don't live isolate in this world,

and...

from time to time, having a reference for comparison, as You have given here, will certainly be of help

Social structures with their hierarchies as they are, need neither to be condemned nor to be spoken sacred.
Nothing is principally unchangeable, and change is unavoidable and then it is good to have some fixed points like are given:
the example of the 2 oxen(one of them must be me)
the example of the tribal and sexual-romantic level
the example of the 1+1= infinite; and last not least= above all,
the example of Yoni rules the world

With these provisos, i think one cannot fail too badly.

Thank You!

juergen

:   We are pack animals, we create hierarchies instinctively, and the higher purpose is teamwork: so many together can do more than one.
:   One ox can pull 1000lbs, two oxen can pull 5000 lbs... but only if they are pulling in the same direction... one must lead.  The value of teamwork is exponential, not cumulative. 1+1= infinite: where two or more are gathered, Goddess is there.

:   Everybody has a little bit of both, to be adaptable to need and circumstance, and an inborn preference, and/or cultural comfort zone for either end, or someplace in the middle.

:   An interest in the kinky aspects tends to be part of one's sexual orientation, partly culture and partly nature.

:   So, on the tribal level it is universal and functional - part of our DNA.  On the sexual-romantic level it is a matter of sexual orientation. Not so many people are into chains and leather, but you will find elements of D/s in most erotic literature, from porn to romance novels.
:   All through nature, courtship rituals of sexual reproduction have a pursuer and a pursued. Most often it is some variation of the male trying to impress the female with his pretty shiny feathers and warm study nest.  Yoni rules the world.
:    Blessings...
:  

: : It was never clear to me if affinity to dominance or submission is just something you have or you don´t- like how you are born in a female or male physical body (it´s just how it is),
: :  or  if it is a choice, like you choose a job or a house.

: : What are your insights on this?

: : Iris