Dear Mystress and Group

In a recent thread there has been much talk of free will and how it cannot be over ridden and it is Goddess Law.

The concept of free will is one that has troubled me much recently and I would question its validity. Do we go out and grab the world by the scruff of the neck, meeting challenges and selecting courses of action? Or does the world come to us presenting us with situations and we simply react in the manner that we must, the manner dictated by our life experiences?

I could spend a week with fifty people I had never met before and at the end of that week everyone of them would have a different opinion of me even though I behaved exactly the same before all. This is because everything we see is seen through the filters of our own experiences is it not? Therefore any conclusions drawn, attitudes adopted and decisions made are done so through those very same filters. How free is that?

There is the school of thought that we are completely responsible for everything that happens to us, the position in which we find ourselves at any given moment. We are responsible for our own actions in other words. I can see this and it is indeed a healthy attitude where the current vogue is that of victimhood and blame.

However I can also see, and to me it seems increasingly more likely, that everything happens because of everything else and that any choices I make can only be based on everything that has happened before. The notion of free will here is valueless.

I find it difficult to equate the above two opinions, surely only one can be. I also find it difficult to balance the idea of free will being Goddess Law against the following quote from Nisargadatta Maharaj:-

"In Hinduism, the very idea of free will is non-existent, so there is no word for it. Will is commitment, fixation, bondage."

I would be grateful for anyones reflections......

noco

Due to the advaita doctrine of non-duality we are free and at the same time struggle with lack on knowledge and understanding in duality. In the ultimate reality we are all one and neither time nor space exists. The world is just a reflection of the eternal. Everything happens at once and at the same spot. From that perspective there are not individuals, no time and no space and can therefore be no free will. Everything that will ever happen is fixed from the beginning, which is also the end and what is in between. Still what happens is in accordance with Goddess will, and thus there is in the same time free will. It%rsquos true that in duality what we experience follows from our karmas and samsaras. They form our illusions which get us trapped in patterns of thinking and acting. From this perspective, it%rsquos a matter of getting rid of illusions step by step. To achieve this we practice yoga and attend to this course. When we believe we are not Goddess and have no free will, we need to understand that is wrong to be able to proceed on our path, and a good starting point is to understand that we have free will. At a certain point of development, our wishes are said to come true. So, the idea that we are totally responsible for all that happens to us is true in one way and at one level, false in another way at another level. The truth is often different when perceived from different levels of spiritual understanding %ndash basically duality contra non-duality.

Dear Vyana

Thank you for that very lucid account. Most appreciated.

A paradox indeed. All I see is that the light of consciousness shines through the film of memory and whilst this is so then this particular mind finds the concept of free will slippery to grasp.

The paradox continues that when the conditionings are released then I can see it would be possible to exercise free will, yet according to the great Sages, there is no desire to do so.

Of course any notion of free will would also have to take into account any potential genetic limitations.

I do see your point very clearly though. Thank you for that.

noco

: Due to the advaita doctrine of non-duality we are free and at the same time struggle with lack on knowledge and understanding in duality. In the ultimate reality we are all one and neither time nor space exists. The world is just a reflection of the eternal. Everything happens at once and at the same spot. From that perspective there are not individuals, no time and no space and can therefore be no free will. Everything that will ever happen is fixed from the beginning, which is also the end and what is in between. Still what happens is in accordance with Goddess will, and thus there is in the same time free will. It%rsquos true that in duality what we experience follows from our karmas and samsaras. They form our illusions which get us trapped in patterns of thinking and acting. From this perspective, it%rsquos a matter of getting rid of illusions step by step. To achieve this we practice yoga and attend to this course. When we believe we are not Goddess and have no free will, we need to understand that is wrong to be able to proceed on our path, and a good starting point is to understand that we have free will. At a certain point of development, our wishes are said to come true. So, the idea that we are totally responsible for all that happens to us is true in one way and at one level, false in another way at another level. The truth is often different when perceived from different levels of spiritual understanding %ndash basically duality contra non-duality.

I have always thought of Free Will as being just "thinking" or discernment. Free will to think, respond or whatever. Free will to surrender.

I know tomorrow that I have to get up at 5:30 am and bust myself for 8 hours but how I respond and how I feel about those things are up to me.

Scott

: The concept of free will is one that has troubled me much recently and I would question its validity. Do we go out and grab the world by the scruff of the neck, meeting challenges and selecting courses of action? Or does the world come to us presenting us with situations and we simply react in the manner that we must, the manner dictated by our life experiences?

Hi Scott

Thank you for taking the time to reply.

I hear what you say but surely conditioned response from previous activity could also explain this?

I must stress, I am not trying to be difficult here, I am seriously trying to get to grips with it and it has occupied a lot of mind space which would have been better spent being quiet :^)

Here's another area where I have difficulty best exemplified by a wonderful quote from Wei Wu Wei....

"Why are you unhappy?
Because 99.9 per cent
Of everything you think
And of everything you do
Is for yourself  -
And there isn't one."

Now if this is so, and it appears to be, to me at least, then who is it that has free will?

noco

: I have always thought of Free Will as being just "thinking" or discernment. Free will to think, respond or whatever. Free will to surrender.

: I know tomorrow that I have to get up at 5:30 am and bust myself for 8 hours but how I respond and how I feel about those things are up to me.

: Scott

Hi,

This quote seems to come from the Buddhist idea of there being no self. In my understanding Buddha never said that the soul does not exist, but that the soul does not exist within the capacity for the mind to understand.  This is how it was explained to me.

Its a clever concept, I think. The quote says you are exhibiting this type of behaviour, but it is also implied that you can stop. If you can stop, then you would need to use your free will. If you had no free will, then you could neither start nor stop any type of behaviour.

Scott

: Here's another area where I have difficulty best exemplified by a wonderful quote from Wei Wu Wei....

: "Why are you unhappy?
: Because 99.9 per cent
: Of everything you think
: And of everything you do
: Is for yourself  -
: And there isn't one."

: Now if this is so, and it appears to be, to me at least, then who is it that has free will?

: noco

Hi Scott,

: This quote seems to come from the Buddhist idea of there being no self. In my understanding Buddha never said that the soul does not exist, but that the soul does not exist within the capacity for the mind to understand.  This is how it was explained to me.

Yes, I don't think he is saying there is no soul here either, I think he is referring to the person(a). Personally, I don't know if the soul exists or not. I guess in a way that is what we are all trying to find out  -  and I guess we will, one way or another :^)  One thing seems likely, the soul would be fully aware of its or the nature of unicity and therefore likely unselfish. Wei Wu Wei also spent a lot of time with Ramana Maharshi.

: Its a clever concept, I think. The quote says you are exhibiting this type of behaviour, but it is also implied that you can stop. If you can stop, then you would need to use your free will. If you had no free will, then you could neither start nor stop any type of behaviour.

Yes this is very true but doesn't this and much of the concept of free will rely on  the supposition that we actually "think"?

At the risk of being booed off the list as an idiot all I can say is I see no evidence of this. After meditating everyday for 3 years what I can say is that thoughts appear and disappear, but that I actally think (whatever I is?) I'm not so sure. It appears not.

Thinking to me at least appears to be much more like a process than something I do. More like digesting food. Thoughts arise and if I am not mindful and sucked in it appears that I am thinking. If I am mindful then clearly thoughts simply arise and I watch that happen, I do nothing to facilitate that. If my attention (whatever that is) is placed on the thoughts they continue sometimes in logical sequence sometimes not. If it is placed elsewhere and held there they stop.

So if the ability to locate ones focus is free will then it appears I have it but even that is not certain. Energy flows where attention goes and attention goes where energy flows. A loud noise will take my attention.

When Einstein discoverd E=MC2 did he actively think this out or did a sequence of logical thoughts automatically rise due to location of attention, born from previous experience eventually coming to a stop, and in that stillness super consciousness gave birth to intuition? If the latter he didn't do anything.

I am not trying to debunk anything here nor am I playing Devils advocate. If there is free will I genuinely wish to understand it and at the moment it appears less likely than likely, to me at least.

I could of course simply accept it but this would do me no favors. I've done that much of my life and when I now examine much that was taken for granted, taken it to its core, it doesn't stand up.

All I know is, I don't seem to know very much at all.

My apologies if I am confusing or boring anyone. Mystress is likely laughing her socks off at the apparently derailed loco haha!

Thanks for your thoughts Scott and the questions they raised in me. My thoughts are no more valid than yours, will likely turn out to be less so, but I appreciate the opportunity to work through them.

noco

  Yup!

 On the higher chakra levels there is no free will, because there is no individual "I" to make decisions, it is all Dharma.
 In the lower chakras we can choose to love or hate, or surrender, but beyond that free will is illusion, the game is rigged. There is always one option a little more attractive than another... carrot and stick, Goddess did it.

: I have always thought of Free Will as being just "thinking" or discernment. Free will to think, respond or whatever. Free will to surrender.

: I know tomorrow that I have to get up at 5:30 am and bust myself for 8 hours but how I respond and how I feel about those things are up to me.

: Scott

: : The concept of free will is one that has troubled me much recently and I would question its validity. Do we go out and grab the world by the scruff of the neck, meeting challenges and selecting courses of action? Or does the world come to us presenting us with situations and we simply react in the manner that we must, the manner dictated by our life experiences?