witness questions

[Pete]

Someone helped me to see recently that I've been 'poking' others energetically and that projection and attachment can and will cause painful karmic feedback.  I meditated on it for a bit and the answer was the witness state.  So, I went back and read the lesson again and have started to work on it in earnest over the past few days.  It is helping to calm the mind and emotions a great deal...but I ran into an issue.

Throughout today, I was on a road trip or walking while practicing to be in the witness state.  Somewhat unclearly, I was able to see things in the way described.  At some point while driving home, the overhead view became much, much clearer and at that point I began losing control of the body...not able to hold things in my hand like the steering wheel or mala and not able to see with the physical eyes the road.  I came back into my body when the fiance began to frantically squeeze and massage my arm and the car was moving somewhat unsteadily.  Where did I go wrong?  Is the witness state something that can be maintained safely while functioning in the world?  I don't really desire to witness myself driving into a tree or another car with a great deal of equanimity. 

warm regards,
Pete

[Mystress]

  I would say, attempting out of body experience while driving, is not a good idea, Pete!  Eh? I'd think that was common sense, but I will edit the essay to be more specific.

   You are supposed to practice it as a meditation,  when you are home safe in your bed or desk chair.  Eyes closed.

   I think you took the crane metaphor a little too literally and actually projected yourself well out of your body.  The directors crane represents emotional detachment, it is symbolic, an effective meditation for learning how it feels.  The Witness is the crown chakra, just above your head. When you have spent time in the Witness, you can go back there just by remembering how it felt to be emotionally detached and clear seeing.  You can also use it as a meditation, watch a movie of past events with a new eye for insights.

  When you get good at it, from practicing in meditation, then there may be times when the perspective will come spontaneously, while walking or whatever, and it will be fine.  You will be in the Witness and in the world. I've spent days in the witness without even noticing I had become so detached.  It can be like that...

  If you want to know what and when you are projecting, try on an ugly mirror bubble for a while.  Mirror the inside of your grounding egg, with an intention that your energy projections are reflected back so you can understand them. Don't wear it for more than a day or two, or even a few hours at a time though. If you start getting restless, irritable or emotionally bent out of shape then melt the mirror away and contemplate the experience after you have settled yourself.

  You can add filters to the mirror too, be specific about what sorts of poking you want to know more about. You can set it to allow some projections through... there is some projection in any communication, and when you tell your fiance you love her, she wants to feel it as well as hear it, eh?

  It is pretty normal for the recently awakened to be sort of pokey, Shakti flying everywhere,  and most take a lot longer to figure it out. Energy folows attention, and especially if there is a desire for control: an emotional or other investment in manipulating how someone will respond to you. 

  We all do it, to some degree.  Learning to keep your energy turned inward is a discipline- don't be too hard on yourself.

  Blessings!!

[Pete]

I would say, attempting out of body experience while driving, is not a good idea, Pete!  Eh?

Agreed.  I didn't realize that an OBE would be the result or that the language used was symbolic.  My assumption with most meditations has been that if I can't use it continuously, than I must be doing something wrong.  This judgement seems like it is no longer useful.  In general trying to carry a given meditative state or meditation on throughout the day has been extraordinarily helpful, assisting to push me along fairly quickly.  I've found that when a meditation can be done continuously all day long for several days (even with an incomplete focus), about the 3rd day or so the state begins to carry into the sleep and then rapidly becomes more permanent and very easy to maintain.  Admittedly, this approach may be dangerously aggressive in some instances.

You are supposed to practice it as a meditation,  when you are home safe in your bed or desk chair.  Eyes closed.

Understood.

If you want to know what and when you are projecting, try on an ugly mirror bubble for a while.

I will work with this.  Thank you!

there is some projection in any communication, and when you tell your fiance you love her, she wants to feel it as well as hear it, eh?

Yes, very much so.  It's probably getting a little frustrating to her.  I didn't realize that this was due to projection/control drama as well.  Thank you for pointing this out.  You are so right about the control thing.  These issues have been coming up recently and there has been some really physically painful stuff in the the solar plexus.  This seems very connected to past relationship things that I hadn't let go of...specifically with the mother, sisters, grandmothers, ex-gf's, and patriarchy stuff that makes me want to cry when I see it.  You've said it again and again in the lessons, but I had no idea about this stuff.  It's yours Goddess, please take it into the light as a gift and replace it with your light and grace!  Some of the stuff was coming up in the chatroom on Friday.  It was so overwhelming that I had to leave the chat.  It has also been getting more difficult and uncomfortable to do the lessons.  I've been having to space them out (go back to the same one every couple of days over a few weeks or a month before moving to the next) and take them a lot slower.  They really help to dredge some stuff up.

Namaste.  Thank you, Goddess.

[juergen]

That witness lesson has been quite a riddle for me, with biographical notes included and how to relate them to the core of the witness teaching itself.
When we are judgemental at each other, there is still the opportunity for us to learn from each other, at least there may be some substance in what others throw at us.
This is demonstrated by the bio-notes of the lesson, introductorily, and i guess it is what they mean to do.

This perspective from outside towards our behavior, fit to circumvent our ego, is furtherly honed in the Witness state: where the viewer is Pure Consciousness Herself with Her own eye, not a more or less reliable person.
The object is still our actual behavior, with the accent on actuality at first.
As long as we hold this accent, it will practically be impossible to "leave the body" and risk havoc; on the contrary, it can help keep the countenance, e.g. nip a panic in the bud.
At least once this step has become accustomed, and stepping out itself causes no distraction.

For me it occures often with a laugh about myself.

Peace,

juergen.

[Eileen]

"That witness lesson has been quite a riddle for me, with biographical notes included and how to relate them to the core of the witness teaching itself.
This perspective from outside towards our behavior, fit to circumvent our ego, is furtherly honed in the Witness state: where the viewer is Pure Consciousness Herself with Her own eye, not a more or less reliable person.
The object is still our actual behavior, with the accent on actuality at first.
As long as we hold this accent, it will practically be impossible to "leave the body" and risk havoc; on the contrary, it can help keep the countenance, e.g. nip a panic in the bud.[/quote]



Something that has been helpful for me as I strive to progress is this tidbit that came from a wise person:

"The witness state is not something you DO.   Rather, it is something you ARE.  You cannot BE the witness.  When you get there, you just are IT.  There is no doer." 

And thus I know that I am not yet there when I am still trying to do.

Blessings!
Eileen

[Gustaf]

Can you watch the doer?  That is witnessing. Essentially, as far as I understand it, you are always there. You can't be anything or anywhere else than being itself. You just experience temporary projection, that's all. 

In my own experience I've discovered three different modes of this. The first one is unconsciousness, being the thought, being the projection, whatever it happens to be in the moment. The second one is witnessing, you watch, almost as if from distance, like the crane and all that. The third one is presence. Embodied and fully connected in the action, you are centered and at the same time conscious within the action itself. Beyond that it really loses any conception.

The center of being is really very very simple.  I once had an experience. Walking along a dusty summer road I was brooding seriously.. Who am I, who is having this experience, why won't I get it, where is it?   Suddenly it dawned, experientially.. I am it.
I took a second look at the phrase "Trying to find myself"  How peculiar, really. What is there to find? I am what I am looking for.  In that moment it appeared extremely hilarious to look for myself.  Where am I...  It is very existential and this experience has been found and then lost again.

The practice of Dharana or concentration illustrates this beautifully.  What you do is that you choose an object, internal or external and focus all your attention on it. If anything distracts, you move the attention back again and again, without tension or struggle. Just with relaxed persistance. The deeper the attention, the more clearly it will reflect yourself.  In the last stage the object is removed entirely and only you remain. (I haven't experienced this in formal meditation, but during spontaneous occurences, like that summer walk)  looking into something and then finding yourself bounced back into.. you.   Most of the time what is bounced back is karma, beliefs, filters.

It's the paradox of being. There's nowhere to arrive to, yet mind needs to move.  And really, all it needs is a direction to move in that allows you to fall back on yourself.  The beauty is that doing can still be there, but without being lost in it.

Just felt like sharing
Namaste
Gustaf






Something that has been helpful for me as I strive to progress is this tidbit that came from a wise person:

"The witness state is not something you DO.   Rather, it is something you ARE.  You cannot BE the witness.  When you get there, you just are IT.  There is no doer." 

And thus I know that I am not yet there when I am still trying to do.

Blessings!
Eileen
[/quote]

[Eileen]

Can you watch the doer?  That is witnessing. Essentially, as far as I understand it, you are always there. You can't be anything or anywhere else than being itself. You just experience temporary projection, that's all. 

Wonderful perspective Gustaf....  Each explanation/experience related helps us gain another foothold on the climb.  Thank you!
Eileen

[Mystress]

   Pete, sometimes I wonder if you are the crash test dummy of FST! You run into problems nobody had before.  It is really good, you are showing me where my writing could be clearer but oy!!  The course is just not supposed to be quite so bumpy.  I am really glad you are pacing yourself.   

> I didn't realize that an OBE would be the result or that the language used was symbolic.  My assumption with most meditations has been that if I can't use it continuously, than I must be doing something wrong.  This judgement seems like it is no longer useful. 

  The language of the unconscious mind is symbolic, most of the visualizations in this course contain symbolism that is clear to the unconscious, whether the conscious mind understands them or not is usually irrelevant.  At the beginning of the grounding you imagine the top of your head is a flower: this is symbolic for opening the crown chakra.  The fiery crystal is real, but ask yourself;  when you connect to the sun above, is it Sol or your own crown chakra?  both?

  Invoking the witness for the first time is done in the form of a visualization, the purpose of the visualization is to get to know what Witness feels like, after that you can invoke the memory of the sensation anytime without having to do the whole directors crane thing.

   Most people cannot visualize while driving, nor should they... almost as bad as driving while talking on a cell phone. Ever since Gustaf converted the vids to mp3 I have been concerned someone would try listening to them while driving... not a good idea! They are too trance-producing.

  The Witness state is an out of body experience. That is why yogis who spend all their time meditating on the crown chakra get so negative of life's pleasures: sex, food, drink.  Easy to be celibate if you are not actually in your body to feel its appetites.

    I am accustomed to the effect of operating my body by remote control... and "blink out" into Witness or void is actually an effect of ADD!!  I leave my body dozens of times a day, whenever I am surprised, curious, shocked or with nearly any type of intensity...

  I am really enjoying this thread, everyone is giving me more ideas on how to make the lesson clearer!  Blessings!

[juergen]

Eileen:
And thus I know that I am not yet there when I am still trying to do.

But trying to go there or assuming to be there(pretending), would be doing without violating the wise rule, no?
I mean You could be a witness at the same time, no matter how You've  smuggled Yourself in.
I suppose the whole trick builds on actual opportunities, any kind of struggle, an ass who needs to tell Ya the truth or one who needs the truth told, any emotional entanglement. Emotion seems the key because the pace to be taken is body work, not much of the brain. The brain is good just for an initial direction of attention (to the crane meditation or whatever you like). The transition of viewpoint feels sensual ,  the actual emotions figgering as a welcome warmup. Once You feel like a witness You ARe certainly The Witness.
You can for instance train it viewing a tv-show with one or a few of Your favorite dumbas... or -of course- by attending that show in person.
In this place the incoming energy feels agreeable, so anger can disperse; still emotional but much nicer.

Then i guess, on a path, where body mind ranks above the conscious mind so decisively, sensations must be the key anyway, Thanx for poking my nose to it!
Kind wishes to Your water plants and be well,

juergen

[Gustaf]

Is presence different from witness, or just moved in a different way.  There can be a sense of absolute totality. It happened first in dreams, but now suddenly happens during waking hours too. I am completely there, in every pore of the body, absolutely conscious of what is going on, at the same time I am not there at all, like a totality. Paradoxes seem to dominate my life right now, every one as amazing as the next.

It's like the witnessing awareness has moved completly INTO cooking, walking, making music or whatever it happens to be in the moment, as when this is not occurring, it is more like either watching myself walking, or even less, thinking about the walking. 

I am wondering if there is any answer to that, what happens when there is simply presence like this. This little monkey mind is trying to figure it out, but it's not working out very well.    

[Mystress]

  The visualization, is a little like Shaktipatting yourself.  It is a prayer to your unconscious DB to open that level of awareness and make it available to you. Open a door, to discover a new aspect of your consciousness.  The prayer is expressed in the symbolic language of the unconscious. 

  It forms a connection between these aspects of yourself, and the connection grows with your growing awareness. T hat is what is happening.  You see, your own DB integrates the prayer of the closed eye visualization into your daily life experience, in a way not hazardous.

  Eileen is right, I fall into the Witness often without realizing because the Witness is often not self conscious enough to notice that it has no boundaries or emotions. However, not to discourage you. It is an opening and it is unfolding as Goddess Wills, and at a pace you can handle. : )

  Presence and Witness, yes/no.  There are manifestations of Presence that are laughing, joyful, even laughing and crying at the same time... Witness is one aspect.

  Don't try too hard to figure it out, because that self consciousness is not the same as witnessing it unfold as Goddess wills. It is a Mystery. Allow it to unfold itself.

   It is like, if your DB wants to do a long slow strip tease, it is not your place to rush her, or to abandon the moment by anticipating the conclusion.  Stay in the moment, and enjoy what Is.

  Blessings...

[Gustaf]

   Presence and Witness, yes/no.  There are manifestations of Presence that are laughing, joyful, even laughing and crying at the same time... Witness is one aspect.

Thank you, that clears some of the confusion!   Presence is more like being whole, complete, so of course Witness is part of that too.

[Mystress]

Yes, Gustaf: what you are experiencing is a later evolution of the same process as I described. The visualization creates an opening: you get to know what Witness perspective feels like, at first separate from daily life, a glimpse of Presence... then it gradually grows and expands into daily life. Integrates.

  Part of "self realization" is a shift of personal identification. As the integration continues and you start spending more time in states where it is apparent that ego is a dysfunctional illusion, you start to think of "I" as "I AM" instead of the usual resume statistics and ego junk most people identify with.  You can see the funny monkey, and what it gets up to and know you are the one seeing the monkey, instead of being the monkey.  You have a choice, options.

    I have encountered people who spontaneously spent a few months in Witness, some got mis-diagnosed with depression!   We are brainwashed by TV to think there should be a cliffhanger drama moment every 30 minutes... so when people actually experience peace for a while, they think there is something wrong with them!   Depressed people are sad and apathetic, not emotionless and detached.

   In such cases, The DB uses Witness as anaestesia for major karma removal surgery...In witness, you are not attached to anything so the DB uses the detachment to clear out emotional stuff.  plus, the energy of being in the non-dual state has its own effects. 

   In my experience, there are stages, witness comes before Laughing Buddha... In Witness, you have no sense of humour to get the cosmic joke. 

  Blessings...

 

[Gustaf]

Mystress wrote:
Yes, Gustaf: what you are experiencing is a later evolution of the same process as I described. The visualization creates an opening: you get to know what Witness perspective feels like, at first separate from daily life, a glimpse of Presence... then it gradually grows and expands into daily life. Integrates.

  Part of "self realization" is a shift of personal identification. As the integration continues and you start spending more time in states where it is apparent that ego is a dysfunctional illusion, you start to think of "I" as "I AM" instead of the usual resume statistics and ego junk most people identify with.  You can see the funny monkey, and what it gets up to and know you are the one seeing the monkey, instead of being the monkey.  You have a choice, options.


Yes, this makes sense definitely.  And in the process it also seems that the ego behaviour is becoming more pronounced, more dysfunctional, and.. worse?  At the same times it appears to be this way because they are being brought to attention and pushed out.  And if ego behaviour would -truly- be getting worse, would I even be aware of dysfunctional thinking and behaviour?  The real kicker is that together with what seems more amplified dysfunction there's also more bliss and stillness. Sometimes it doesn't seem to add up, at least not to the monkey-mind.  Integrating seems like such a chaotic mess sometimes.

>    I have encountered people who spontaneously spent a few months in Witness, some got mis-diagnosed >with depression!   We are brainwashed by TV to think there should be a cliffhanger drama moment every >30 minutes... so when people actually experience peace for a while, they think there is something wrong >with them!   Depressed people are sad and apathetic, not emotionless and detached.

My family...  Heh.  During visits I've sometimes just sat down somewhere to bliss out, and I was often asked "What's wrong?" "Are you ok?"  The TV is not on, not engaging in any activity, and not sleeping. Something's gotta be wrong.  After a while they've gotten used to it, after realizing I'm doing just fine.   If I'm really -not- fine, I either complain or go to hide somewhere.  Family always needs time to adjust to changes. I've got a very very loving family. 

>   In my experience, there are stages, witness comes before Laughing Buddha... In Witness, you have no sense of humour to get the cosmic joke. 

Presence is absolutely boggling. The most mundane things suddenly become incredible beauty.  The other day I saw crushed glass from an old bottle on the street, and found incredible beauty arising. The verbal comment that came afterwards was "That form is dissolving again with such grace" (Thoughts appear to  always comment afterwards, but seems the gap is usually too short to notice it)