Percyval, I'm not submissive but I got questions

rayman+ · Mar 23, 2001, 05:52:07 PM

Percyval,

I saw your post on March 14 and would like to talk about this submissive stuff here, assuming we're not off topic. I can't really get my head around what being a submissive male might be about. I may be a neanderthal but I always experienced passion and agression as being kinda related. I probably modeled this behavior from when I was in the boyscouts when the scoutmaster brought along several copies of Playboy magazine to the weekend campouts. The older boys used cigarettes to burn holes in the pictures in all the appropriate holes. Today I find this disturbing but I'm afraid an imprint was left. Also growing up where the alfa males played football and "got" the "best" girls probably left an element of competitiveness in my outlook. This really only defines me as being a typical middle Amercian male because in my experience most guys in middle america have similar experiences to relate. Add to this that expericnes of having been ridiculed and humiliated into submission in a religious context and I think, hey, I'm an average guy. There is a part of me that says that if you don't take you won't get. So to me being submissive sounds a little like being suicidal and a way of denying who you really are (please keep in mind that I know I'm wounded and I'm trying to work this out so please help me with this one). Maybe what you're talking about is not denying who you really are but rather releasing your ego which isn't who you are. I need your views on this.

I'm really intrigued by the idea that you are really getting something by letting someone dominate you. At best I only have a Hollywood understanding of BDSM. I saw that movie "8mm" and boy I learned a lot. That guy Nicolas Cage was like, righteous. But anyway, what activities are you engaging in, young man?

I skirted for a time on the edges of something called the mens movement where men tried to hug each other and not feel homophobic about it (an oversimplification). I think it had something to do with forgiveness and release of the kinds of teenage things that I picked up from the boyscouts. But to me something about that is that there weren't any women involved. In a way I think these guys were discovering themselves outside of the context of male/female polarity, or they were recovering from childhood sexual abuse. The meaningful part for me was looking at sexual polarity and being able to externalize it instead of internalizing it. It seems to me that sexual polarity hamstrings all sorts of personal development, career development, relationships, everything. "I can't do that because I'm a guy, or a girl". So maybe sexual polarity is a blind of some sorts. I mean my wife can do a bunch of stuff better than I can but I'm a better cook. So next question is; does male submissiveness have something to do with reverse polarity?

That's probably enough to start a thread. I would really appreciate your thoughts on this.

not so meekly

rayman+

Percyval · Mar 23, 2001, 11:02:54 PM

> Percyval,
> I saw your post on March 14 and would like to talk about this
submissive stuff here, assuming we're not off topic. I can't really get
my head around what being a submissive male might be about. I may be a
neanderthal but I always experienced passion and agression as being
kinda related.

hi Rayman...it's good to see another post from you... i was wondering where you went... i think this thread is definitely on topic here... we are basically talking about "surrender", and i think that is the essence of Fire-Serpent Tantra...

passion can be both passive and aggressive, it normally has both components... like with the yin in yang, and the yang in yin... fierce passion usually involves some sort of "letting go", which is really another way of saying "surrender"...

> Also growing up
where the alfa males played football and "got" the "best" girls probably
left an element of competitiveness in my outlook. This really only
defines me as being a typical middle Amercian male because in my
experience most guys in middle america have similar experiences to
relate. Add to this that expericnes of having been ridiculed and
humiliated into submission in a religious context and I think, hey, I'm
an average guy.

i have shared a similar background with you... especially as greaser before turning into a hippy... but the early hippy culture was also strongly influenced by a Kerouac and Kesey type of machismo...

> There is a part of me that says that if you don't take
you won't get. So to me being submissive sounds a little like being
suicidal and a way of denying who you really are (please keep in mind
that I know I'm wounded and I'm trying to work this out so please help
me with this one). Maybe what you're talking about is not denying who
you really are but rather releasing your ego which isn't who you are. I
need your views on this.

to me, being "submissive" is a way that i relate sexually only to a specific woman who assumes the role of playing "Goddess" for me... it is an experience of letting go of ego and all preconceptions... my submissiveness then becomes an active power that draws Goddess from within my lover and myslf to take over whatever form of ecstasy (or any other experience) Goddess wishes to express...

i find that in surrendering to Goddess, She sees that there is abundance; plenty of everything to go around... Her gifts are given freely... our culture often teaches us to have a fear-based belief in scarcity... this belief feeds on itself: it is not necessary...

in my day to day life i am quite aggressive, although also kind, polite and considerate... although few would consider me submissive... i am a warrior, a knight, in service to My Lady... Mystress expresses this very well in 2 pages of her domin8rex.com site:
http://www.domin8rex.com/serpent/mind/submen.htm
http://www.domin8rex.com/serpent/mind/domina.htm

> I'm really intrigued by the idea that you are really getting
something
by letting someone dominate you. At best I only have a Hollywood
understanding of BDSM. I saw that movie "8mm" and boy I learned a lot.
That guy Nicolas Cage was like, righteous. But anyway, what activities
are you engaging in, young man?

that movie is a poor example of female domination/male submission... how about Mrs. Robinson in that old Dustin Hoffman movie? or the Borg Queen seducing Data in that Star Trek movie?... to me, these explain it better than most hollywood films made specifically about BDSM... submission is largely about seduction; being seduced into surrendering all for the pleasure of being in the sexy and loving presence of Goddess...

> So next question is; does male submissiveness have something to do
with reverse polarity?

yes, very much so... this is one facet of it... all of the cultural macho programming is short-circuited, and it allows for more pure libido to express, and be directed by the woman, whose sexual power is coaxed and seduced out of her into free and spontaneously powerful sexual expression...

> That's probably enough to start a thread. I would really appreciate
your thoughts on this.

thank you for asking... answering has been my great pleasure...

> not so meekly

> rayman+

warmly and boldly,

percyval

rayman+ · Mar 25, 2001, 09:01:59 AM

Percyval,

I read your response yesterday but had to spend a day thinking about it.

: to me, being "submissive" is a way that i relate sexually only to a specific woman who assumes the role of playing "Goddess" for me... it is an experience of letting go of ego and all preconceptions... my submissiveness then becomes an active power that draws Goddess from within my lover and myslf to take over whatever form of ecstasy (or any other experience) Goddess wishes to express...

I've been around the wheel a few times in wiccan circles and can relate to feminine diety in some ways. When a priestess draws down she takes on aspects of the goddess. She may be an idiot by day but when she draws down she is a goddess, without a doubt. But I never got hit by a goddess. To me these experiences were being in the presense of an higher order of self (as I have experienced when I have drawn down the god). So I have my own idea of what releasing the ego might be. I don't fully get the fully dimension of what letting go of all preconceptions might be. I mean at the end of the day you get spanked which releases your endorphins, right? It sounds like a rarely found high. What I haven't figured out is what makes that sacred. I guess in a way I can see it. If I imagine the Domina as a representative of the universe all of her actions would be sacred. But I don't get a spark off of that. It sounds like something I could do watching a horse race. So I think I don't know what you are talking about.

: yes, very much so... this is one facet of it... all of the cultural macho programming is short-circuited, and it allows for more pure libido to express, and be directed by the woman, whose sexual power is coaxed and seduced out of her into free and spontaneously powerful sexual expression...

I'm very much locked in that fear-based belief in scarcity. I interpret much of this discussion as an attempt to break out of this mindset. To me being hit means being hurt. Hurting comes with loneliness which is the disconnect, the separation from all that is. Ideally people would come together to commune with that within us that is bornless, that which is beyond pain, beyond ego, beyond self. I am doubtful that pain is the road to union.

Actually I have been swithced here in Russia. It's a common ritual in saunas to be swithced with fronds from a birch tree. The leaves pass on chemicals to the skin which facilitates clensing. But it's done by friends and strangers with no sexual context. I prefer the massage with honey. Here this is thought of as hygene only.

Let's keep working on this please. I get the feeling that I am missing the point.

Best Regards

rayman+

Percyval · Mar 25, 2001, 09:54:30 AM

hi Rayman,

here are some thoughts that your comments have aroused in me... i hope they are helpful...

you seem stuck on what "getting hit" means to you... submission does need involve spanking, whipping or any form of hitting... i suggest focusing on non-physical aspects of submission, to understand it in a way that pushes fewer of your buttons... consider getting hit one of your "limits"... that's ok...

btw: i have done much switching over the years and am a skillful dom... so i do know that side of the coin... but it just does not really push my buttons... i merely do it occasionally to bring pleasure to a lover who wants to submit...

you wrote: "I don't FULLY get the FULLY dimension of what letting go of ALL preconceptions might be"... this statement is rather "all or none" oriented... perhaps surrendering in small ways at your own comfort level might be a way that you can come to understand submission... actually, i am not sure why you are trying so hard to understand submission... what are you looking for?

perhaps masochism is about pain, but submission is not... it is about joyful surrender; at least it is to me...

when you get up to the lessons about your Divine Beloved within you, and surrendering to your own Divine Beloved... perhaps this will give you a way to learn about this through experience in a safe and comfortable way...

warmly,

percyval

Barg · Mar 25, 2001, 01:20:54 PM

: i have shared a similar background with you... especially as greaser before turning into a hippy... but the early hippy culture was also strongly influenced by a Kerouac and Kesey type of machismo...

I remember being young and reading On The Road, and being totally into the adventure, and then realizing that the chicks were never on the road, they were always pit stops. It made me so angry, and was the second revelation in my consciousness of this culture and women. The first was when I was in the first grade and the teacher kept saying "Every student has HIS pencil" as an example of English correct grammar. I couldn't figure out why HIS was used for every student when I was a HER. Pissed me off.

Barg

Barg · Mar 25, 2001, 01:24:30 PM

: Actually I have been swithced here in Russia. It's a common ritual in saunas to be swithced with fronds from a birch tree. The leaves pass on chemicals to the skin which facilitates clensing. But it's done by friends and strangers with no sexual context. I prefer the massage with honey. Here this is thought of as hygene only.

Yeah! I've been switched too, at the Russian/Turkish baths here in New York City. It's called Platza here. What's most sexual (really sensual and sexual are the same things?) is the heat and water mixed with the Platza and massage, and then at the end, when they pour the cold water over you . . . whew! It's more than hygiene, it's sensory awakening! For me.

Barg

Augustin · Mar 25, 2001, 06:24:14 PM

: I remember being young and reading On The Road, and being totally into the adventure, and then realizing that the chicks were never on the road, they were always pit stops. It made me so angry, and was the second revelation in my consciousness of this culture and women. The first was when I was in the first grade and the teacher kept saying "Every student has HIS pencil" as an example of English correct grammar. I couldn't figure out why HIS was used for every student when I was a HER. Pissed me off.
: Barg

It's about time that we start writing the world's herstory.
The 20th century clearly was pre-herstorical time...

Myself, I have quite a few herstory lessons to catch up on...

Respectful Love to all the HER,

Augustin
(a common his)

Percyval · Mar 25, 2001, 07:52:01 PM

:
: : i have shared a similar background with you... especially as greaser before turning into a hippy... but the early hippy culture was also strongly influenced by a Kerouac and Kesey type of machismo...

: I remember being young and reading On The Road, and being totally into the adventure, and then realizing that the chicks were never on the road, they were always pit stops. It made me so angry,

Barg,

as i wrote that i felt that you would have some strong reaction to this... and it seems like something never mentioned as folks fondly reminisce about beat culture...

my role model at the time was a Kerouac type who was the biggest sexist pig i've ever encountered... and i was raised in an Italian family...heheheheh...

warmly,

percyval

Barg · Mar 26, 2001, 01:13:41 AM

: : I remember being young and reading On The Road, and being totally into the adventure, and then realizing that the chicks were never on the road, they were always pit stops. It made me so angry,

: Barg,

: as i wrote that i felt that you would have some strong reaction to this... and it seems like something never mentioned as folks fondly reminisce about beat culture...

Well, my poetry lineage is mixed with the Beats, and I hung around a lot of them (Ginsberg, DiPrima, etc.), and by the time I got there, there were plenty of women making plenty of noise about the sexism in the beat tradition.

Barg

Mystress · Mar 26, 2001, 11:33:44 AM

: > Percyval,
: > I saw your post on March 14 and would like to talk about this
: submissive stuff here, assuming we're not off topic.

Not at all.. you must learn to be submissive to your Divine Beloved.

: I can't really get
: my head around what being a submissive male might be about. I may be a
: neanderthal but I always experienced passion and agression as being
: kinda related.

Could be so, but what of the passion in being the recipient of the aggression? Does it not take more strength to be still under attack, than to lash out defensive?

: > Also growing up
: where the alfa males played football and "got" the "best" girls probably
: left an element of competitiveness in my outlook.
See it differently, according to laws of nature. The males compete for the fem attention.. just as the Knights may joust and compete for the favor of their Queen. Does that not put the women above the status of the males? It is not the same as fighting over property.. because doubtless there were always a few of the "best" women who scorned the jocks altogether, and chose the science geeks..
Men compete with each other, for the attention of women.. it is women who hold all the power. Submission is simply accepting this, and manifesting the truth of nature.

: This really only
: defines me as being a typical middle Amercian male because in my
: experience most guys in middle america have similar experiences to
: relate. Add to this that expericnes of having been ridiculed and
: humiliated into submission in a religious context and I think, hey, I'm
: an average guy.

Submissive men are not wimps.. rather they are in a different competition which requires greater strength. If you have already accepted your submission to the Dvine Feminine, then ridicule and humiliation hold no horror for you. Your strength comes from your ability to endure, without complaint instead of fearing and fleeing. How weak is the self esteem of a person who fears words?

: > There is a part of me that says that if you don't take
: you won't get.

Is this the mindset of a rapist?
What does "take" mean to you? Does it not mean, take advantage of opportunities to please a woman, so she may favor you?

So to me being submissive sounds a little like being
: suicidal and a way of denying who you really are (please keep in mind
: that I know I'm wounded and I'm trying to work this out so please help
: me with this one). Maybe what you're talking about is not denying who
: you really are but rather releasing your ego which isn't who you are. I
: need your views on this.

Yes!! That which you truly are, can never be harmed. That which can be harmed, is false..
Consider, the true Heroes... they are not self serving, rapists, thieves, corrupt politicians.. They are the Heroes selflessly in service to women and children. The fireman who risks his own life to rescue a child, the gentleman who drowns on the Titanic so women and children can occupy the lifeboats. The father who works himself to death for his children's survival. The heroic male, is the sacrifice to nature, and in sacrifice, finds fulfillment. These are the Stag King Gods, the sacrifice.. the Christs and the Gandhis of the world. Such a role is a far greater challenge than self serving aggression spawned by fear.

: > So next question is; does male submissiveness have something to do
: with reverse polarity?

I would say it depends on what polatrity you start out with. Surrender to the Divine Beloved is part of the process of ego merging into te unconscious, and it tends to balance the gender of the individual. Men start to show more "fem" qualities, emotion, receptivity, being nurturing... and women start to show more "male" qualities.. agression, dominance, being more outspoken and opinionated.

Thanks for starting such an interesting thread, rayman. There is anothr link for you to check out, below..
Blessings

Mystress · Mar 26, 2001, 11:39:15 AM

: Thanks for starting such an interesting thread, rayman. There is anothr link for you to check out, below..
: Blessings
ooooooops, it didn't show.. here it is:

http://www.charschateau.com/hero.htm">My submissive, my hero.

Percyval · Mar 26, 2001, 01:12:13 PM

thank you, Mystress... what a great essay! i have never seen that one before... it is explained so beautifully... and it was so sexy to hear... *big horny smile*

Mystress · Mar 29, 2001, 08:07:15 AM

: I'm very much locked in that fear-based belief in scarcity. I interpret much of this discussion as an attempt to break out of this mindset. To me being hit means being hurt. Hurting comes with loneliness which is the disconnect, the separation from all that is. Ideally people would come together to commune with that within us that is bornless, that which is beyond pain, beyond ego, beyond self. I am doubtful that pain is the road to union.

I want you to do an experiment with yourself, to understand something, experientially.

Here is the experiement.

Pinch yourself on your arm, while holding your breath and thinking "No! No! No!" over and over.

Stop and breathe.

Pinch yourself again, while breathing evenly and thinking "Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!" with sincere gratitude, over and over.

Stop and breathe.

Did you notice? You could pinch yourself twice as hard, the second time, and it did not hurt. Feel the two pinched places.. probably the one where you were resisting still aches, and the one where you were expressing gratitude feels warm and tingly. Probably the one with gratitude, hardly shows a mark.

Understand.. all of life, is a gift of Goddess.
Pain and hurting is a judgment the ego makes. That is where the separation comes in.. not from the sensation, but from your ego resistance and judgments about it.

Gratitude flips the endorphin switch in your brain, and turns pain to bliss. Not all pain.. probably you would want some regular anaestesia if you were getting major surgery.. but for most of the lumps and bumps of daily life, it is enough. The physical hurts, and the emotional ones.

This experience applies not just to your understanding of submission and maschocism, but to all of life. It is the ego resistance and judgments, that make life painful. That make separation.
Gratitude and surrender, makes bliss.
It is in the nature of ego, to resist, to judge. Enlightenment is surrendering all resistance and judgments (which come of Karma), to "go with the flow".. let the flow of life carry you, knowing that there is nothing that happens, that is not Divine Will.
It is by the surrender, that submissives experience euphoria from being whipped. They set their own ego aside, to surrender to the will of the Dom, and experience ecstacy. You will also experience bliss through surrender to Goddess within yourself.

: Let's keep working on this please. I get the feeling that I am missing the point.

: Best Regards

: rayman+
I think, the experiment will reveal the point that you are missing. It cannot be understood intellectually. You have to feel it..

Blessings..