Mirror Game / DB Shadow

[Ylva]

(quote)Most commonly I saw the shadow side of my Divine Beloved... but there was a period when a Grey Alien was the most persistent and steady face. I showed it to many people, and could always tell when they saw it by the look on their face because it was very disturbing to see.

The DB has a Shadow too? I suspected this. Explains some things...

The weirdest experience I ever personally had with a mirror was when I was in my teens. Somewhat drunk at a party, I went to the bathroom. I stared into the mirror and looked at myself. It looked like me, but at that moment I knew it wasn't me. It felt like someone alien was staring at me. Not an alien, but something alien. IT was staring at me. And then it felt like my mind split and one part was drunk and sleeping and the other part was completely sober and watching IT in the mirror, and it was watching me... I thought then maybe this is my enemy. This is the impostor who stole my body and all I can do is sit here and watch.

Somehow I knew then that a human being is not really what it seems to be. And it's like people are all pretending.

It was supposed to be me, but it wasn't. And then I left the room and watched IT talk to people, but IT was only going through the motions. And the other people were not real, just shells doing the same thing. And I thought that no one ever knows another, that no one ever touches another with something real and what was the point of the party and having 'fun' and people talking to each other at all...

Maybe that's why the most draining situations for me are crowds and social occasions. I feel like a puppet when I talk to people and when they are gone, I can return to sanity again. But now it's like whatever people are saying doesn't really matter because they are saying totally different things on another level. I think my brain gets confused and tired trying to reconcile two different realities.

[juergen]

: The DB has a Shadow too? I suspected this. Explains some things...

Heehee, no i don't think so!
There is only the one and only Shadow, but there may be some whim to trading it to various aspects of Self.

If You wait only a few lessons You'll probably find this answered timely.

There has already been a mention of the Shadow in lessons before the mirror game, but more in a greater picture. I then tried to understand the Shadow, though i seemingly was not supposed to get it then, or maybe some students get it by intuition even then. No need to haste and worry i think...

juergen.

: (quote)Most commonly I saw the shadow side of my Divine Beloved... but there was a period when a Grey Alien was the most persistent and steady face. I showed it to many people, and could always tell when they saw it by the look on their face because it was very disturbing to see.

: The DB has a Shadow too? I suspected this. Explains some things...

: The weirdest experience I ever personally had with a mirror was when I was in my teens. Somewhat drunk at a party, I went to the bathroom. I stared into the mirror and looked at myself. It looked like me, but at that moment I knew it wasn't me. It felt like someone alien was staring at me. Not an alien, but something alien. IT was staring at me. And then it felt like my mind split and one part was drunk and sleeping and the other part was completely sober and watching IT in the mirror, and it was watching me... I thought then maybe this is my enemy. This is the impostor who stole my body and all I can do is sit here and watch.

: Somehow I knew then that a human being is not really what it seems to be. And it's like people are all pretending.

: It was supposed to be me, but it wasn't. And then I left the room and watched IT talk to people, but IT was only going through the motions. And the other people were not real, just shells doing the same thing. And I thought that no one ever knows another, that no one ever touches another with something real and what was the point of the party and having 'fun' and people talking to each other at all...

: Maybe that's why the most draining situations for me are crowds and social occasions. I feel like a puppet when I talk to people and when they are gone, I can return to sanity again. But now it's like whatever people are saying doesn't really matter because they are saying totally different things on another level. I think my brain gets confused and tired trying to reconcile two different realities.

[juergen]

Yes, i also have made similar observations and experiences, like You talk of in these "nordic blues";
From a position of power and responsibility it becomes clear that we attracted and created these hells of social shallowness; i think there are few people who are unable to express something meaningful, once a little fire is set, mutual interest grows and exchange gets flowing. This way i often found low expectations largely surpassed.

Sometimes a little first step is all that's needed to create a warmer atmosphere, just a casual remark that shows another that they are noticed. We have driven it to a lot of distance and independance to the people next to us, but this is not irreversible, no shame is needed, we can just simply always learn to behave in other ways.

Some experiences of "alienation" might be due to the chakra levels, with there different consciousness, so this should not disturb us too much and we can grant this variation in personality to ourselves and others. Some people cultivate what is in carl jung's term a "persona", a personality of very fixed habits and such a persona may also be attributed to certain social events. Which may appear way of silly, but i think there is also something to watch, experience, learn, and last not least: to amuse, observing personas; only slowly i'm learning this lately, finding peace and enjoyment in this, longing for a position of power, where the environment has not to be 100% ideal; or: the worse the better

juergen.

: (quote)Most commonly I saw the shadow side of my Divine Beloved... but there was a period when a Grey Alien was the most persistent and steady face. I showed it to many people, and could always tell when they saw it by the look on their face because it was very disturbing to see.

: The DB has a Shadow too? I suspected this. Explains some things...

: The weirdest experience I ever personally had with a mirror was when I was in my teens. Somewhat drunk at a party, I went to the bathroom. I stared into the mirror and looked at myself. It looked like me, but at that moment I knew it wasn't me. It felt like someone alien was staring at me. Not an alien, but something alien. IT was staring at me. And then it felt like my mind split and one part was drunk and sleeping and the other part was completely sober and watching IT in the mirror, and it was watching me... I thought then maybe this is my enemy. This is the impostor who stole my body and all I can do is sit here and watch.

: Somehow I knew then that a human being is not really what it seems to be. And it's like people are all pretending.

: It was supposed to be me, but it wasn't. And then I left the room and watched IT talk to people, but IT was only going through the motions. And the other people were not real, just shells doing the same thing. And I thought that no one ever knows another, that no one ever touches another with something real and what was the point of the party and having 'fun' and people talking to each other at all...

: Maybe that's why the most draining situations for me are crowds and social occasions. I feel like a puppet when I talk to people and when they are gone, I can return to sanity again. But now it's like whatever people are saying doesn't really matter because they are saying totally different things on another level. I think my brain gets confused and tired trying to reconcile two different realities.

[Ylva]

Hi, thanks for your reply!

I am familiar with the Shadow from Jung also, before this. I am a little confused when Mystress mentions a male Shadow in her lesson, I always thought the Shadow was 'supposed' to be the same sex as you. Perhaps it's more complex.

I am not sure I have ONE shadow, or form of such. In dreams, I am often confronted by a group of people  with a female leader who is a bit like a typical school bully with minions (who don't really do much, but seem to be their to make 'them' look bigger).

There seem to be other female fragments that are not strictly oppositional but somehow representing other disowned parts of self.

One, very wispy and almost transparent character had gotten 'married' to my DB in my dream. (this was a ehile ago.) DB seeemd shocked to see me, she didn't seem to know anything. It wasn't that there had been a mistake and he had married the wrong person... but it appeared to be a temporary situation. I also got the feeling that it was because it was the only part of me that had yet been available to him. He seemed to be trying to figure out what to do, inevitably we would have to be together at some point... In the dream though, my biggest concern was that I didn't want to hurt that girl... she seemed so lonely and helpless. He seemd to know this, but still wanting to reach me somehow. I have later figured out that the situation seems to be that she is some kind of disowned fragment from my teens and he is taking care of her for now.

In another dream I think I WAS her, and I couldn't reach DB because I had made myself invisible and I was too shy. I was a girl in my teens and had to watch him ask some woman who looked like the normal nowadays me to dance... while I was invisible and couldn't do anything. I didn't realize I had been making myself invisible until I woke up.

So I'm sure that wasn't a Shadow.

The most Shadow-like characters in my dreams seem to be the annoying group leader bully character and some dark male characters. Or monsters.

DB comes as light haired guy, white horse or mythical animal or point of light (very clear and undescribable energy - and these are sometimes out of reach or something tries to separate us), dark haired guy, (similar energy but with something more... something bad happened in the past but is being corrected, not sure what it is offhand).

Then there is one guy who just HATES me (and all women, for that matter). I am a worthless piece of shit who shouldn't dare get in his way. Perhaps he's a masculine piece of me that hates being trapped in a female body, and wishes that 'we' had been born a man, so this could have been 'his' life, and his body. He seems to feel that I am absolutely incompetent at life and I should kill myself or something.

Someimes there are some evil-seeming people who want to 'make a deal'. They want me to feel its all hopeless and that its pointless for me to fight them because I am too weak and useless. If I give in, I always end up in big trouble (I get sedated or locked up somewhere) and they laugh and leer at me and say that I will never see DB again...

Don't know if they have anything to do with the Shadow.

But I always dream that I am all sorts of people, both sexes. Sometimes I meet the characters, sometimes I am or become those characters... sometimes when I wake up, I am completely exhausted because of intense, epic dreams.

: Heehee, no i don't think so!
: There is only the one and only Shadow, but there may be some whim to trading it to various aspects of Self.

: If You wait only a few lessons You'll probably find this answered timely.

: There has already been a mention of the Shadow in lessons before the mirror game, but more in a greater picture. I then tried to understand the Shadow, though i seemingly was not supposed to get it then, or maybe some students get it by intuition even then. No need to haste and worry i think...

: juergen.

[Ylva]

Hmm, a thought. If Mystress could act out her sadistic shadow male in the physical by being a dominatrix.

I would have to act mine out by killing myself... this doesn't seem very workable to me.

: Hi, thanks for your reply!

: I am familiar with the Shadow from Jung also, before this. I am a little confused when Mystress mentions a male Shadow in her lesson, I always thought the Shadow was 'supposed' to be the same sex as you. Perhaps it's more complex.

: I am not sure I have ONE shadow, or form of such. In dreams, I am often confronted by a group of people  with a female leader who is a bit like a typical school bully with minions (who don't really do much, but seem to be their to make 'them' look bigger).

: There seem to be other female fragments that are not strictly oppositional but somehow representing other disowned parts of self.

: One, very wispy and almost transparent character had gotten 'married' to my DB in my dream. (this was a ehile ago.) DB seeemd shocked to see me, she didn't seem to know anything. It wasn't that there had been a mistake and he had married the wrong person... but it appeared to be a temporary situation. I also got the feeling that it was because it was the only part of me that had yet been available to him. He seemed to be trying to figure out what to do, inevitably we would have to be together at some point... In the dream though, my biggest concern was that I didn't want to hurt that girl... she seemed so lonely and helpless. He seemd to know this, but still wanting to reach me somehow. I have later figured out that the situation seems to be that she is some kind of disowned fragment from my teens and he is taking care of her for now.

: In another dream I think I WAS her, and I couldn't reach DB because I had made myself invisible and I was too shy. I was a girl in my teens and had to watch him ask some woman who looked like the normal nowadays me to dance... while I was invisible and couldn't do anything. I didn't realize I had been making myself invisible until I woke up.

: So I'm sure that wasn't a Shadow.

: The most Shadow-like characters in my dreams seem to be the annoying group leader bully character and some dark male characters. Or monsters.

: DB comes as light haired guy, white horse or mythical animal or point of light (very clear and undescribable energy - and these are sometimes out of reach or something tries to separate us), dark haired guy, (similar energy but with something more... something bad happened in the past but is being corrected, not sure what it is offhand).

: Then there is one guy who just HATES me (and all women, for that matter). I am a worthless piece of shit who shouldn't dare get in his way. Perhaps he's a masculine piece of me that hates being trapped in a female body, and wishes that 'we' had been born a man, so this could have been 'his' life, and his body. He seems to feel that I am absolutely incompetent at life and I should kill myself or something.

: Someimes there are some evil-seeming people who want to 'make a deal'. They want me to feel its all hopeless and that its pointless for me to fight them because I am too weak and useless. If I give in, I always end up in big trouble (I get sedated or locked up somewhere) and they laugh and leer at me and say that I will never see DB again...

: Don't know if they have anything to do with the Shadow.

: But I always dream that I am all sorts of people, both sexes. Sometimes I meet the characters, sometimes I am or become those characters... sometimes when I wake up, I am completely exhausted because of intense, epic dreams.

:
: : Heehee, no i don't think so!
: : There is only the one and only Shadow, but there may be some whim to trading it to various aspects of Self.

: : If You wait only a few lessons You'll probably find this answered timely.

: : There has already been a mention of the Shadow in lessons before the mirror game, but more in a greater picture. I then tried to understand the Shadow, though i seemingly was not supposed to get it then, or maybe some students get it by intuition even then. No need to haste and worry i think...

: : juergen.

[Mystress]

: (quote)Most commonly I saw the shadow side of my Divine Beloved... but there was a period when a Grey Alien was the most persistent and steady face. I showed it to many people, and could always tell when they saw it by the look on their face because it was very disturbing to see.

: The DB has a Shadow too? I suspected this. Explains some things...

Well, not exactly. Ego casts a shadow.  Ego is who you think you are: truth is, You are All. Shadow side, is the separation between: all that you think you are not.
 Kundalites relate to the shadow through the practice of "what you see is yourself reflected", owning projections & "Namaste." Examining hidden self centered motives to get to know who you really are. All.

 It is only for Shamans, that the Shadow takes form as a teacher presence.  

: The weirdest experience I ever personally had with a mirror was when I was in my teens. Somewhat drunk at a party, I went to the bathroom. I stared into the mirror and looked at myself. It looked like me, but at that moment I knew it wasn't me. It felt like someone alien was staring at me. Not an alien, but something alien. IT was staring at me. And then it felt like my mind split and one part was drunk and sleeping and the other part was completely sober and watching IT in the mirror, and it was watching me... I thought then maybe this is my enemy. This is the impostor who stole my body and all I can do is sit here and watch.

The Witness state and Grey alien possession feel remarkably similar.

: Somehow I knew then that a human being is not really what it seems to be. And it's like people are all pretending.

: It was supposed to be me, but it wasn't. And then I left the room and watched IT talk to people, but IT was only going through the motions. And the other people were not real, just shells doing the same thing. And I thought that no one ever knows another, that no one ever touches another with something real and what was the point of the party and having 'fun' and people talking to each other at all...

In social situations, sometimes I get knocked out of my body without realizing it, and the aloof judgemental alienated state you describe is one of the symptoms. When you are not in your body, you don't feel the love, the emotional exchange, and you miss out on the cues of the "Kinetic dance" of subtle body language signals. You also miss out on physical cues like your own fatigue or hunger... and so you feel that much worse when you come back and have to deal with having stressed and neglected the body by abandoning it for a while.

 Plus, you end up taking on more karma from people- the gaze of the Witness state energy projections trigger a backwash of karma from the people you aim it at... and you are not in the body to be filling it with your own presence and guarding your personal boundaries... you lose touch with those too because spirit has no boundaries.  

 Start to notice when you are feeling that specific type of alienation, and respond by grounding and focusing on your breathing for a while. Often that is enough to bring you back, but focusing on physical sensations is good too. Check in for feelings of hunger, thirst, aches and pains, look for desires, you can even pinch yourself, massage yourself or get a hug. Getting a hug is the last thing you might think to do, in that state so it is really helpful to have people around you who notice when you are really not present and will hug you back home again.

 My druid comes home from work every day, and his attention brings me back to my body, especially if I have been "away" at my desk writing... channelling the wisdom of the Void.  he comes come, kisses my hand and tells me about my day, gradually capturing my attention and bringing me back from wherever I got to, to feel my appetites and decide what is for dinner.

: Maybe that's why the most draining situations for me are crowds and social occasions. I feel like a puppet when I talk to people and when they are gone, I can return to sanity again. But now it's like whatever people are saying doesn't really matter because they are saying totally different things on another level. I think my brain gets confused and tired trying to reconcile two different realities.

You feel like a puppet because you are, when operating the body by remote control as if it is on strings. Focusing on the body, on breath and heartbeat brings you back to the body... back to sanity, as you say.

  Blessings...  

[Ylva]

 
:   Kundalites relate to the shadow through the practice of "what you see is yourself reflected", owning projections & "Namaste." Examining hidden self centered motives to get to know who you really are. All.

:   It is only for Shamans, that the Shadow takes form as a teacher presence.

It makes sense to me that not everyone's experience would be the same, either. Well, at least I hope so.

Examining would mostly be something you do in your normal awake time and then I can see that you could look at it more as 'shadow material' than a 'shadow person/character'.

In dreams though, this material seems to take the form of characters, because the information is communicated from the subconscious by story-telling and symbolism. Then it might not be as strange as I thought that the shadow type characters keep changing, as they would represent different projections. Since I'm not a Shaman.

:    In social situations, sometimes I get knocked out of my body without realizing it, and the aloof judgemental alienated state you describe is one of the symptoms. When you are not in your body, you don't feel the love, the emotional exchange, and you miss out on the cues of the "Kinetic dance" of subtle body language signals. You also miss out on physical cues like your own fatigue or hunger... and so you feel that much worse when you come back and have to deal with having stressed and neglected the body by abandoning it for a while.

I guess I feel 'safer' in my body when I am alone. I'm one of those people who can't concentrate very well when there are people around.

:   Plus, you end up taking on more karma from people- the gaze of the Witness state energy projections trigger a backwash of karma from the people you aim it at... and you are not in the body to be filling it with your own presence and guarding your personal boundaries... you lose touch with those too because spirit has no boundaries.

I wonder if that might be caused by having had experiences where one has felt powerless to guard personal boundaries... so it feels better to just be away.

:   Start to notice when you are feeling that specific type of alienation, and respond by grounding and focusing on your breathing for a while. Often that is enough to bring you back, but focusing on physical sensations is good too. Check in for feelings of hunger, thirst, aches and pains, look for desires, you can even pinch yourself, massage yourself or get a hug. Getting a hug is the last thing you might think to do, in that state so it is really helpful to have people around you who notice when you are really not present and will hug you back home again.

Sounds like a great idea!

[Vyana]

This sounds fascinating. To me DB is elusive, difficult to catch (as most women I suppose), but definitely not mean, not in any way. On the contrary, she is joyful and mysterious. If she has a shadow, I have not seen it (except maybe in real life ). But I have some kind of problem with the shadow too. As most upcoming insights are positive, it seems as if I blocked it out. Mystress says I don%rsquot want to se myself reflected. But I am starting to believe that it has just been so acquainted to me for so many years that I don%rsquot recognize it for what it is. I seldom remember my dreams, but when I do they are not that complicated. Most often they are some kind of adventure stories, where the main character is a very attractive girl who is somehow cooperating with me to reach some kind of goal. She looks different every time. Still, I believe she represents DB. Other characters are most often less important. In the same way, when I do the practice recommended in the DB-lesson, what I get is a lot of images of different beautiful women passing by at high speed. Sometimes I can see DB in a distance, as a dark haired Japanese girl riding on a 500 meter fire vomiting dragon, smiling and waving her arm at me. And sometimes, when I close my eyes, I can feel her touch and the healing energy movements it generates. However, it never got as real as Mystress says it can be.

: (quote)Most commonly I saw the shadow side of my Divine Beloved... but there was a period when a Grey Alien was the most persistent and steady face. I showed it to many people, and could always tell when they saw it by the look on their face because it was very disturbing to see.

: The DB has a Shadow too? I suspected this. Explains some things...

[Ylva]

I wonder if there are differences in how you encounter your DB depending on whether you are male or female?

This was a rather interesting story from a man: http://www.innerbeloved.com/">Inner Beloved

I'm sure there are  alot of indiviual differences though.

--------

: This sounds fascinating. To me DB is elusive, difficult to catch (as most women I suppose), but definitely not mean, not in any way. On the contrary, she is joyful and mysterious. If she has a shadow, I have not seen it (except maybe in real life ). But I have some kind of problem with the shadow too. As most upcoming insights are positive, it seems as if I blocked it out. Mystress says I don%rsquot want to se myself reflected. But I am starting to believe that it has just been so acquainted to me for so many years that I don%rsquot recognize it for what it is. I seldom remember my dreams, but when I do they are not that complicated. Most often they are some kind of adventure stories, where the main character is a very attractive girl who is somehow cooperating with me to reach some kind of goal. She looks different every time. Still, I believe she represents DB. Other characters are most often less important. In the same way, when I do the practice recommended in the DB-lesson, what I get is a lot of images of different beautiful women passing by at high speed. Sometimes I can see DB in a distance, as a dark haired Japanese girl riding on a 500 meter fire vomiting dragon, smiling and waving her arm at me. And sometimes, when I close my eyes, I can feel her touch and the healing energy movements it generates. However, it never got as real as Mystress says it can be.

: : (quote)Most commonly I saw the shadow side of my Divine Beloved... but there was a period when a Grey Alien was the most persistent and steady face. I showed it to many people, and could always tell when they saw it by the look on their face because it was very disturbing to see.

: : The DB has a Shadow too? I suspected this. Explains some things...

[Vyana]

Thank you! This is interesting stuff. I am sure there are differences. For instance, I have no negative fantasies concerning women (or anything else). This idea that the beloved is imprisoned reminds me of a conversation with my DB at a session with Mystress. We met the Japanese girl in a city at the bottom of the sea, far away down under the water. She had just told us that the five hundred meters dragon was her pet. Then we asked her (Mystress advised me to ask her) why she needed the dragon and what use she had of him. She answered that sometimes it sometimes got lonely %ldquodown here%rdquo. (She did not seem to be trapped in a dungeon though, flying on a huge dragon through the space as she was.) Mystress concluded that the Japanese girl was not really my DB and that DB had sent her %ldquosecretary%rdquo instead of coming her self. We asked her why she had done that, but I think we got no real answer. At that same session something scary was at one point just about to materialize in a corner of the room, but it never did.

: I wonder if there are differences in how you encounter your DB depending on whether you are male or female?

: This was a rather interesting story from a man: http://www.innerbeloved.com/">Inner Beloved

: I'm sure there are  alot of indiviual differences though.

[Vyana]

Obviously, here is a difference. To Mystress, the divine beloved is the body-mind, the subconscious, representing the whole body, but at the web-site it seems to represent the right half of the brain, which is perceived as feminine (and probably the right part of the brain in women, although this doesn%rsquot seems totally consequent).

: Thank you! This is interesting stuff. I am sure there are differences. For instance, I have no negative fantasies concerning women (or anything else). This idea that the beloved is imprisoned reminds me of a conversation with my DB at a session with Mystress. We met the Japanese girl in a city at the bottom of the sea, far away down under the water. She had just told us that the five hundred meters dragon was her pet. Then we asked her (Mystress advised me to ask her) why she needed the dragon and what use she had of him. She answered that sometimes it sometimes got lonely %ldquodown here%rdquo. (She did not seem to be trapped in a dungeon though, flying on a huge dragon through the space as she was.) Mystress concluded that the Japanese girl was not really my DB and that DB had sent her %ldquosecretary%rdquo instead of coming her self. We asked her why she had done that, but I think we got no real answer. At that same session something scary was at one point just about to materialize in a corner of the room, but it never did.

:
: : I wonder if there are differences in how you encounter your DB depending on whether you are male or female?

: : This was a rather interesting story from a man: http://www.innerbeloved.com/">Inner Beloved

: : I'm sure there are  alot of indiviual differences though.

[juergen]

Thanks for that rich dream stuff of Yours, i don't dream so much, so i'm like a Vampire about other peoples dreams, sooo instructive !

>In another dream I think I WAS her, and I couldn't reach DB because I had made myself invisible and I was too shy.
>I was a girl in my teens and had to watch him ask some woman who looked like the normal nowadays me to dance...
>while I was invisible and couldn't do anything. I didn't realize I had been making myself invisible until I woke
>up.
>
>So I'm sure that wasn't a Shadow.

Hmm, "a" Shadow or THE Shadow, i think it leads to confusion to speak of "a"... .
On the other hand the Shadow can be represented by persons or maybe symbols or allegories, and they may vary.
What we realize of the Shadow can be manifold, but it's always not a welcomed realisation; probably a harsh one to prevent a harsher course of events.
So when you became invisible and shy in that dream, that wasn't probably agreeable. Probably another hint at disowning part of your Self, thus clearly Shadow-stuff content.
Mostly and firstly, we are only aware of such content, often feeling bugged, maybe even feel hostile toward disowned parts of the Self(very similar to projections on other persons). But the Shadow Self remains invisible here, abstract.
Another term for Shadow is conscience, and the Shadow's acts are the voice of conscience, so in this way by The Shadow we can understand conscience(Which is a great experience for me, hooray!).
Then a measure for the quantity of shadow-events(become ungrounded, being bugged, nightmares/disturbing dreams, fears, feelings of hell/being shit) is a measure of the Karma-stuff that separates us from the position of power and responsibility.
This leads to the concept of the wall of separation or the wall of forgetfulness. Blocking powerful content from our consciousness, making the Sushumna a dire narrow little river, strangulating it, strangulating us.
That wall makes us forget our Divine Self in two ways:
1. as a consequence of resistance, new hell stuff is given extra permission to pass that wall(our projections and hate tirades onto others, fanatisms); --> patching up the screen with shit.
2. the ordinary blocking function as a passive wall, depriving us of ways to act and express, depriving us of using poison that can destroy and heal altogether..depriving us of stuff that needs consideration and is not "undoubtly good"(which concept is also an ingredient of the wall).
Such a wall is of course life-threatening in its consequences, and the Shadow is that Divine part, gracious enough to give us some hints, so we can lower that wall and get more and more goodies from the Unconscious into the conscious mind to work potentially richer.
Then there are persons with a more or less mature conscience, which means that we enter a habitual dialog with conscience(or The Shadow) about all possible things, at a stage when fear of responsibility is released out of the wall, so that responsibility becomes an option;
[without responsibility, good intentions go the way of hell and evolve worse than bad intentions would probably do. It's like biking downhill on a bicycle without handlebars: downhill is easy, but this way it becomes a curse. So good intentions without responsibility turn into a curse. Germans did the Holocaust with good intentions but without responsibility, and this ain't over yet: to follow a directive blindly is still considered a good habit of good intention by most Germans, and judging the Serbs for genocide at the same time, is only a confirmation, of what we are learning about the Shadow. In the modern civilised world and its psychology, that sort of conformism is also euphemistically termed as conscience, Freudians, Jungians: super-ego, moral complex]
That dialogue with conscience however, can also be considered a grace of the Shadow. how far this is special for Shamans i can not tell.
I don't think i am a Shaman, but this isn't strange to me either; sometimes my spiteful Ex is turning up as a spokesperson, sometimes other people, according to the situation. Not a special Teacher like Mystress' Armand, but teaching it is, nonetheless(i think).

>I am not sure I have ONE shadow, or form of such. In dreams, I am often confronted by a group of people with a
>female leader who is a bit like a typical school bully with minions (who don't really do much, but seem to be their
>to make 'them' look bigger).

A bully who feels a little fragile(see Your other dream) so She needs a bunch of minions at Her side to look bigger... i guess this makes sense, given that You didn't think You were a bully.

>One, very wispy and almost transparent character had gotten 'married' to my DB in my dream. (this was a ehile ago.)
>DB seeemd shocked to see me, she didn't seem to know anything. It wasn't that there had been a mistake and he had
>married the wrong person... but it appeared to be a temporary situation. I also got the feeling that it was because
>it was the only part of me that had yet been available to him. He seemed to be trying to figure out what to do,
>inevitably we would have to be together at some point... In the dream though, my biggest concern was that I didn't
>want to hurt that girl... she seemed so lonely and helpless. He seemd to know this, but still wanting to reach me
>somehow. I have later figured out that the situation seems to be that she is some kind of disowned fragment from my
>teens and he is taking care of her for now.

That's interesting, cause it confirms what i have guessed about male Divine Beloveds: That they really desire to empower 'Their' Woman's Self; interesting that he cared about that abandoned fragmant of Your past and as it seems, even achieve to reconcile You with that Shadowy aspect. It's moving.
Hey! there is an old marriage custom from the past, You find it in "The Taming of the Shrew": Amorous Lucentio wants lovely Bianca, the younger sister of Katharina(The "Shrew"), but first the elder one has to be married off.
Thats Your rejected character from Your teens-past...ok?

>Then there is one guy who just HATES me (and all women, for that matter). I am a worthless piece of shit who
>shouldn't dare get in his way. Perhaps he's a masculine piece of me that hates being trapped in a female body, and
>wishes that 'we' had been born a man, so this could have been 'his' life, and his body. He seems to feel that I am
>absolutely incompetent at life and I should kill myself or something.

That's a tricky one. Left me no chance than to expand a little
A masculine piece of You would relate to the Divine Beloved, who is obviously quite fond of You.

Indeed there are such guys, who only seek to belittle You as a woman, but nonetheless it looks like a projection of Your Self-discontent on that guy in Your dream. The Shadow reflecting it back at you;
of course there is sort of a male macho hell 'til this day in many or most spots on earth with bitching, intimidating males, but that sillyness can be viewed as an action of a *collective Shadow*, revealing again unwelcome, valuable truth.
The normal individual Shadow reveals his message from within, by unwelcome ungrounding, bugging sensations etc, but the collective Shadow causes annoyance in public thru offense etc.
A harsh demonstration that you have created hell(You created it, since it is a collective hell; participating in a crime is organized crime and of heavier seriousness than single deed).
So this kind of annoyance by stupid males is Shadow speech of collectively created hell.
As usual there is fear to take (individual) responsibility for this and You project it on that bringer of bad tidings(that macho type thing) who only functions as a tool of the collective Shadow.

>Someimes there are some evil-seeming people who want to 'make a deal'. They want me to feel its all hopeless and
>that its pointless for me to fight them because I am too weak and useless. If I give in, I always end up in big
>trouble (I get sedated or locked up somewhere) and they laugh and leer at me and say that I will never see DB
>again...

That's also part of the collective hell, could be inspiration for a thriller scene, with all the psycho-stuff and intimidation, include laughing and leering; elements of Marquis de Sade i would guess, or that Gwendoline story by John Willie.
Again, a position of power would take responsibility and admit firstly, that we attracted this; and that it's again a projection; of course again i have to share that collective responsibility with You, isn't this better?

Stina Nordenstam wrote a text:

       And I try to get up and I try to move but
       this thing won't let me
       It's heavy as a man's body on you
       and it's this close to get me

these things are not a matter of personal strength alone; We have created a system in favor of psychopaths, be they ghosts, animals, men, warfare kids, killer bees, HIV virus stems etc. To clear this we need a higher level of common sense, which seems also provided by Goddess, within FST, what a grace !

juergen.

: Hi, thanks for your reply!

: I am familiar with the Shadow from Jung also, before this. I am a little confused when Mystress mentions a male Shadow in her lesson, I always thought the Shadow was 'supposed' to be the same sex as you. Perhaps it's more complex.

: I am not sure I have ONE shadow, or form of such. In dreams, I am often confronted by a group of people  with a female leader who is a bit like a typical school bully with minions (who don't really do much, but seem to be their to make 'them' look bigger).

: There seem to be other female fragments that are not strictly oppositional but somehow representing other disowned parts of self.

: One, very wispy and almost transparent character had gotten 'married' to my DB in my dream. (this was a ehile ago.) DB seeemd shocked to see me, she didn't seem to know anything. It wasn't that there had been a mistake and he had married the wrong person... but it appeared to be a temporary situation. I also got the feeling that it was because it was the only part of me that had yet been available to him. He seemed to be trying to figure out what to do, inevitably we would have to be together at some point... In the dream though, my biggest concern was that I didn't want to hurt that girl... she seemed so lonely and helpless. He seemd to know this, but still wanting to reach me somehow. I have later figured out that the situation seems to be that she is some kind of disowned fragment from my teens and he is taking care of her for now.

: In another dream I think I WAS her, and I couldn't reach DB because I had made myself invisible and I was too shy. I was a girl in my teens and had to watch him ask some woman who looked like the normal nowadays me to dance... while I was invisible and couldn't do anything. I didn't realize I had been making myself invisible until I woke up.

: So I'm sure that wasn't a Shadow.

: The most Shadow-like characters in my dreams seem to be the annoying group leader bully character and some dark male characters. Or monsters.

: DB comes as light haired guy, white horse or mythical animal or point of light (very clear and undescribable energy - and these are sometimes out of reach or something tries to separate us), dark haired guy, (similar energy but with something more... something bad happened in the past but is being corrected, not sure what it is offhand).

: Then there is one guy who just HATES me (and all women, for that matter). I am a worthless piece of shit who shouldn't dare get in his way. Perhaps he's a masculine piece of me that hates being trapped in a female body, and wishes that 'we' had been born a man, so this could have been 'his' life, and his body. He seems to feel that I am absolutely incompetent at life and I should kill myself or something.

: Someimes there are some evil-seeming people who want to 'make a deal'. They want me to feel its all hopeless and that its pointless for me to fight them because I am too weak and useless. If I give in, I always end up in big trouble (I get sedated or locked up somewhere) and they laugh and leer at me and say that I will never see DB again...

: Don't know if they have anything to do with the Shadow.

: But I always dream that I am all sorts of people, both sexes. Sometimes I meet the characters, sometimes I am or become those characters... sometimes when I wake up, I am completely exhausted because of intense, epic dreams.

:
: : Heehee, no i don't think so!
: : There is only the one and only Shadow, but there may be some whim to trading it to various aspects of Self.

: : If You wait only a few lessons You'll probably find this answered timely.

: : There has already been a mention of the Shadow in lessons before the mirror game, but more in a greater picture. I then tried to understand the Shadow, though i seemingly was not supposed to get it then, or maybe some students get it by intuition even then. No need to haste and worry i think...

: : juergen.

[Ylva]

Hmmm... well they say the map is not the territory. There are different models, but no model can show the whole picture.

I tend to think that these energies are much more fluid and that the DB would have the power to enter fully or partially into any given form. I would be surprised if the DB was limited to a particular form. It's the energy and experience of it that matters.

In more Jungian terms... It might be a mediator to the Self (even though Mystress would say that your Higher Self would usually appear as a same-sex version of yourself - the terms may not fully overlap though - according to Jung, the Self can appear as more abstract objects in dreams, a crystal, an animal, a symbol).

So I see my DB as a mediator to the Self, in masculine form (masculine because these are the aspects of my soul that I am least able to express fully through my one-sexed physical body and thus my role in the world, so these are then energies or aspects of myself that I would need to connect with in order to be 'whole' - the 'Self' (which is always whole) then would be beyond sex/gender and might not be exactly the same thing as 'Higher Self'). There are many and varying definitions of 'Self' 'Ego' 'Higher Self' 'Soul' 'Oversoul' 'Spirit' etc etc etc and they don't exactly all agree. It's probably somewhat difficult to define.

But if I continue with that previous idea... the form of the mediator would be a container of sorts, to contain some degree of energy or Love from the Self, to attract me towards it. Communicating through a form, which symbolizes masculine aspects that completetes me.

But sometimes there will be a mix, and I will be presented with masculine aspects that have not been integrated or what you want to call it. I guess you could call that a 'secretary'. I see it more as me being shown what I need to work with to reach integration. Sometimes I will meet a male character that seems to be completely disconnected from the 'Self' energies, (those ones are very difficult to work with) often I will meet a character that is showing me one particular aspect I need to look at, but otherwise it seems to be connected (easier to work with and fun enough to meet). Sometimes more rarely I will meet or merge with a completely clear male energy that is just pure bliss. Often it seems to be more difficult to retain as a memory though. More often, I will have a dream where I am just being separated from that merge, something comes between us.

In one dream I was becoming aware of hugging this star of light, which probably was masculine, but not in male form as such. Something dark forces me away from 'him' and down a corridor (Could it be a birth memory? It seems slightly different than that though). The darkness fills the corridor and I can't get back to 'him'. The darkness is laughing triumphantly at me and finally forces me into a dimly lit room to the side of the corridor. I say ' but at least the bathroom is still there' (to the side of 'my' room). But then the darkness laughs at me and he fills the bathroom with darkness too, so I can't go in there. I run outside instead. Outside is desert. A woman is talking to 3 soldiers, trying to persuade them not to destroy something or not to take us away, I don't remember now. I try to help. Then animals crawl out from under a stone, beacuse spring was (too?) early this year, which could be good or bad apparently.

In some ways it's like a continuum. I am obviusly more confortable 'interacting' with something resembling a person, so that's what I get most of the time. Sometimes there's just this cute guy who I don't really dare walk up to or he just walked down the street 5 minutes ago and I'm trying to find him or something like that. Or we are on bikes next to each other and we are going to talk to each other soon, but not just yet.

But that's all in dreams. While awake, it's more like I can connect with the energy or 'him' and it feels like someone is there and holding me and running energy through my body. It's funny because he can 'smile' and its an energy smile, not a face smiling. But it's cuter than any face I've seen.

***

I don't think the website said that the DB is always imprisoned... it said that this particular man had imprisoned his DB. He had issues with women and was afraid of his female self, which he felt an urge to control and supress.

This is probably more common with men, since men are often made to feel ashamed of anything feminine within themselves in our culture.

---------------------

: Thank you! This is interesting stuff. I am sure there are differences. For instance, I have no negative fantasies concerning women (or anything else). This idea that the beloved is imprisoned reminds me of a conversation with my DB at a session with Mystress. We met the Japanese girl in a city at the bottom of the sea, far away down under the water. She had just told us that the five hundred meters dragon was her pet. Then we asked her (Mystress advised me to ask her) why she needed the dragon and what use she had of him. She answered that sometimes it sometimes got lonely %ldquodown here%rdquo. (She did not seem to be trapped in a dungeon though, flying on a huge dragon through the space as she was.) Mystress concluded that the Japanese girl was not really my DB and that DB had sent her %ldquosecretary%rdquo instead of coming her self. We asked her why she had done that, but I think we got no real answer. At that same session something scary was at one point just about to materialize in a corner of the room, but it never did.

:
: : I wonder if there are differences in how you encounter your DB depending on whether you are male or female?

: : This was a rather interesting story from a man: http://www.innerbeloved.com/">Inner Beloved

: : I'm sure there are  alot of indiviual differences though.

[Vyana]

Yes, sure the models differ, and then they don%rsquot even speak the same language. As I se it, they are basically symbols or metaphors more or less useful to different individuals. Still the rigid application of the models seems to be very important to many therapists and teachers. I have often tried to get help from practitioners from different schools. Then they most often tried to form me after their model instead of modifying the models to be useful for me. Some (most?) of them even seem to have a kind of specialty. They sometimes seem to treat everybody for the same problem, regardless of whether they have it or not! So they misdiagnosed my symptoms of upcoming karma %ndash the healing process as such %ndash as a disease they were to cure and treated me for a condition I did not have. And when I protested %ndash because I felt my whole body protesting (%ldquoNo! No! This is way out of line! Get out of this as soon as possible!%rdquo) %ndash they accused me of %ldquoresistance%rdquo or %ldquolack of trust%rdquo or %ldquonot being ready to let go%rdquo or something similar. Lately I have arrived at the same conclusion as I believe you have, when reading your posts. I need to find my own way. And I have also got in touch with some very valuable helpers. Today I feel very good most of the time, in spite of the fact that I am practicing a lot of kegels and am undergoing a rather intense cleansing process.

What I have found out is that it is not as simple as if I had been neglecting my feminine side and nurtured my masculine side. Basically I have promoted both sides, but I have also suppressed parts of them both. And from what you have written of your dreams, I conclude you have too. As I am an intellectual at work and my brain is trained for logical analyses, therapists often diagnose me as %ldquoa typical left brain person%rdquo (in spite of the fact that I am also a lot of other things, such as rather emotional and sensible). But this is not entirely true. On the contrary they get astonished when the results of their own tests show an uncommonly high degree of balance between what they diagnose as the two parts of the brain. They obviously expected something very different. And when my brain activity was recently measured, the right half of my brain was considerably more active then the left. So, I think that what I have suppressed are both male and female elements.

I agree that the difference between the Higher Self, DB, guardian angels etc should not be overly stressed. Basically, it%rsquos the same energy and it%rsquos different symbols and representations which are useful for different persons and in different settings. As I said, I normally don%rsquot have visions of persons. But I have animals. I have at least four of them; the huge fire-vomiting dragon, a huge lion, a big bear and an eagle. The representations differ, and I believe that some of them might be more parts of suppressed materials in my mind and less parts of divine energy than others, I don%rsquot know for sure. These might be what you call %ldquomasculine [or in some cases feminine] aspects that have not been integrated%rdquo. If these animal representations are %ldquowhat I need to work with to reach integration%rdquo it%rsquos not easy to tell what I should do. Be brave as the lion, sharp-eyed and stern as the eagle, strong as the bear? And if so, what quality does the dragon represent?

I agree that at least the main characters should, as you say, be free of limitations. So, why would my DB feel %ldquolonely down here%rdquo if she is not limited to a particular form? Or why would she send a suppressed part (a %ldquosecretary%rdquo) instead? Do the Japanese girl and her dragon pet represent something I need to work with to really get in touch with DB? Is she my suppressed female side, which is not imprisoned but still trapped and not let out to play? And is the dragon the kundalini energy that will set her free? Or was DB just kidding?

DB is a terrific mediator as she is a human representation, easier to relate to, and to get attracted by, than an impersonal %ldquoOversoul%rdquo or even a personal god or goddess. Still, she is difficult to catch. When DB is perceived as a container of energy, it might be somewhat deceiving, a little bit like the Trojan horse, to the ego.

I don%rsquot often have visions with persons involved. But when I dream about a woman we are most often together, cooperating, helping each other, hugging, kissing and making love. There is most often no separation. But nowadays I for some reason seldom remember my dreams. When I am awake, I more often have body sensations and symbolic visions. I recognize the sensations that feel like someone is there and holding me and running energy through my body very well. It is as if DB gives me healing from many places on the front of my body. After I had the vision of being tied to Freyja (an earlier post), I can most of the time feel the energy sensation of her body towards mine. To me the body sensations are probably the main experiences from the kundalini process. The phase of my healing process I am in today started about three years ago with my heart opening up like a volcano of joy and bliss in the midst of the deepest misery. Then it started to burn the shadows away and created a growing open space around my heart. Today, it has been there almost continuously for months and is very seldom overcome with negativity.

I can%rsquot say how you should interpret your dream about the star of light and the dark corridor. Maybe you can understand it better if you relate to your life situations when you had it? Or if you look for key words on sites or in books regarding interpretation of dreams? It reminds me slightly of a vision I had when participating in a ritual for bringing on a movement towards my true goal in life (which I am still searching for). During the ritual I was directed down in dark corridors, where I met people dressed in black suits. I was somewhat disappointed, as that did not seem as a direction in which I wanted to go. But my yogic therapist later investigated this corridor and detected an %ldquoinner room%rdquo, which I have still not found myself. I did not understand much of that dream, but as my therapist said; you don%rsquot have to understand everything, the most important thing is to be there and experience it.

: Hmmm... well they say the map is not the territory. There are different models, but no model can show the whole picture.

: I tend to think that these energies are much more fluid and that the DB would have the power to enter fully or partially into any given form. I would be surprised if the DB was limited to a particular form. It's the energy and experience of it that matters.

: In more Jungian terms... It might be a mediator to the Self (even though Mystress would say that your Higher Self would usually appear as a same-sex version of yourself - the terms may not fully overlap though - according to Jung, the Self can appear as more abstract objects in dreams, a crystal, an animal, a symbol).

: So I see my DB as a mediator to the Self, in masculine form (masculine because these are the aspects of my soul that I am least able to express fully through my one-sexed physical body and thus my role in the world, so these are then energies or aspects of myself that I would need to connect with in order to be 'whole' - the 'Self' (which is always whole) then would be beyond sex/gender and might not be exactly the same thing as 'Higher Self'). There are many and varying definitions of 'Self' 'Ego' 'Higher Self' 'Soul' 'Oversoul' 'Spirit' etc etc etc and they don't exactly all agree. It's probably somewhat difficult to define.

: But if I continue with that previous idea... the form of the mediator would be a container of sorts, to contain some degree of energy or Love from the Self, to attract me towards it. Communicating through a form, which symbolizes masculine aspects that completetes me.

: But sometimes there will be a mix, and I will be presented with masculine aspects that have not been integrated or what you want to call it. I guess you could call that a 'secretary'. I see it more as me being shown what I need to work with to reach integration. Sometimes I will meet a male character that seems to be completely disconnected from the 'Self' energies, (those ones are very difficult to work with) often I will meet a character that is showing me one particular aspect I need to look at, but otherwise it seems to be connected (easier to work with and fun enough to meet). Sometimes more rarely I will meet or merge with a completely clear male energy that is just pure bliss. Often it seems to be more difficult to retain as a memory though. More often, I will have a dream where I am just being separated from that merge, something comes between us.

: In one dream I was becoming aware of hugging this star of light, which probably was masculine, but not in male form as such. Something dark forces me away from 'him' and down a corridor (Could it be a birth memory? It seems slightly different than that though). The darkness fills the corridor and I can't get back to 'him'. The darkness is laughing triumphantly at me and finally forces me into a dimly lit room to the side of the corridor. I say ' but at least the bathroom is still there' (to the side of 'my' room). But then the darkness laughs at me and he fills the bathroom with darkness too, so I can't go in there. I run outside instead. Outside is desert. A woman is talking to 3 soldiers, trying to persuade them not to destroy something or not to take us away, I don't remember now. I try to help. Then animals crawl out from under a stone, beacuse spring was (too?) early this year, which could be good or bad apparently.

: In some ways it's like a continuum. I am obviusly more confortable 'interacting' with something resembling a person, so that's what I get most of the time. Sometimes there's just this cute guy who I don't really dare walk up to or he just walked down the street 5 minutes ago and I'm trying to find him or something like that. Or we are on bikes next to each other and we are going to talk to each other soon, but not just yet.

: But that's all in dreams. While awake, it's more like I can connect with the energy or 'him' and it feels like someone is there and holding me and running energy through my body. It's funny because he can 'smile' and its an energy smile, not a face smiling. But it's cuter than any face I've seen.

: ***

: I don't think the website said that the DB is always imprisoned... it said that this particular man had imprisoned his DB. He had issues with women and was afraid of his female self, which he felt an urge to control and supress.

: This is probably more common with men, since men are often made to feel ashamed of anything feminine within themselves in our culture.

: ---------------------

: : Thank you! This is interesting stuff. I am sure there are differences. For instance, I have no negative fantasies concerning women (or anything else). This idea that the beloved is imprisoned reminds me of a conversation with my DB at a session with Mystress. We met the Japanese girl in a city at the bottom of the sea, far away down under the water. She had just told us that the five hundred meters dragon was her pet. Then we asked her (Mystress advised me to ask her) why she needed the dragon and what use she had of him. She answered that sometimes it sometimes got lonely %ldquodown here%rdquo. (She did not seem to be trapped in a dungeon though, flying on a huge dragon through the space as she was.) Mystress concluded that the Japanese girl was not really my DB and that DB had sent her %ldquosecretary%rdquo instead of coming her self. We asked her why she had done that, but I think we got no real answer. At that same session something scary was at one point just about to materialize in a corner of the room, but it never did.

: :
: : : I wonder if there are differences in how you encounter your DB depending on whether you are male or female?

: : : This was a rather interesting story from a man: http://www.innerbeloved.com/">Inner Beloved

: : : I'm sure there are  alot of indiviual differences though.

[juergen]

we must discern the Shadow Self and Shadow Stuff, which would to be released.
The Shadow Self is Someone who presents Shadow Stuff in a way like the Health Army presents their collecting box under One's nose: not nice, but obvious.
Obvious is the presentation but not its meaning;
so there are teachings for this(that FST-lesson for example).
And obvious is not the presenter, so near is that collecting box before the nose, that you can't see the soldier; certain pangs of conscience are the closest hint i can get, hinting at the Shadow Self.
There is certainly Shadow Stuff from the Divine Beloved: a tendency to heartily punches in a woman or girl, a desire for wearing earrings in a male; stuff likely to be disowned, but definitely in the range of these persons, providing potential to them if aversions are surrendered and integration is sought for.
Maybe this could be meant by "the DB's Shadow", but this use is confusing, i think.

: This sounds fascinating. To me DB is elusive, difficult to catch (as most women I suppose), but definitely not mean, not in any way. On the contrary, she is joyful and mysterious. If she has a shadow, I have not seen it (except maybe in real life ). But I have some kind of problem with the shadow too. As most upcoming insights are positive, it seems as if I blocked it out. Mystress says I don%rsquot want to se myself reflected. But I am starting to believe that it has just been so acquainted to me for so many years that I don%rsquot recognize it for what it is. I seldom remember my dreams, but when I do they are not that complicated. Most often they are some kind of adventure stories, where the main character is a very attractive girl who is somehow cooperating with me to reach some kind of goal. She looks different every time. Still, I believe she represents DB. Other characters are most often less important. In the same way, when I do the practice recommended in the DB-lesson, what I get is a lot of images of different beautiful women passing by at high speed. Sometimes I can see DB in a distance, as a dark haired Japanese girl riding on a 500 meter fire vomiting dragon, smiling and waving her arm at me. And sometimes, when I close my eyes, I can feel her touch and the healing energy movements it generates. However, it never got as real as Mystress says it can be.

: : (quote)Most commonly I saw the shadow side of my Divine Beloved... but there was a period when a Grey Alien was the most persistent and steady face. I showed it to many people, and could always tell when they saw it by the look on their face because it was very disturbing to see.

: : The DB has a Shadow too? I suspected this. Explains some things...

[juergen]

: Hmm, a thought. If Mystress could act out her sadistic shadow male in the physical by being a dominatrix.

: I would have to act mine out by killing myself... this doesn't seem very workable to me.

i'm neither an expert nor a fan of the Jungian system, but this talk of 'acting out' sounds like from that direction, but could also be Freud or from another; whatsoever, too modern for me.

Mystress is obviously releasing Her principal original aversion against being sadistic.

You seem to share this same aversion originally with Her, when You disown that bully girl, and should release this aversion, too, integrate Your sadism and bullyness, like Mystress does.
(meanwhile i'm exercising on some magick to become invisible, smiles)

[Ylva]

: Thanks for that rich dream stuff of Yours, i don't dream so much, so i'm like a Vampire about other peoples dreams, sooo instructive !

Aghh, it's so easy to miss
posts here! And I'm still confused about how to get a post to appear lower down in the tree structure. I have now taken this to the almighty GoLive <--------TM web editor so I can color my text, see if it works. Well, it seems I still have to rewrite it here because the code has paragraphs and stuff. If I forget just one closing font tag, the whole rest of the text gets colored.

Glad you don't mind reading other people's dream stuff. I find dreams and dialogue with dream figures are my main place for finding guidance, probably some kind of combination of both having immense imagination and tending to get in the way of myself when I'm awake.

: So when you became invisible and shy in that dream, that wasn't probably agreeable. Probably another hint at disowning part of your Self, thus clearly Shadow-stuff content.

Yes, I feel it was definitely saying that if he can't see me, how can he ask me to dance? I wanted to be invisible, because I was worried that the other woman (older, more experienced) would make fun of me and completely humiliate me if I appeared to be interested. It didn't feel safe I guess. I was very young in the dream. But it was almost like 'switching roles' with myself in the earlier dream. This was like a year ago though.

: Such a wall is of course life-threatening in its consequences, and the Shadow is that Divine part, gracious enough to give us some hints, so we can lower that wall and get more and more goodies from the Unconscious into the conscious mind to work potentially richer.

So if the Shadow didn't appear in the dreams... we would never see and be warned about what is there.

: Then there are persons with a more or less mature conscience, which means that we enter a habitual dialog with conscience(or The Shadow) about all possible things, at a stage when fear of responsibility is released out of the wall, so that responsibility becomes an option;

When you are saying this.. I think I have to rent or buy Pink Floyd's 'The Wall' soon... maybe there will be something interesting there... saw it ages ago.

: That dialogue with conscience however, can also be considered a grace of the Shadow. how far this is special for Shamans i can not tell.

I don't think you have to be a Shaman to use some shamanic techniques. It just doesn't make you a Shaman. One aspect of shamanism would probably be that you can also enter into and converse with ~other~ people's subconscius worlds and characters, not that I know that much about it.

: I don't think i am a Shaman, but this isn't strange to me either; sometimes my spiteful Ex is turning up as a spokesperson, sometimes other people, according to the situation. Not a special Teacher like Mystress' Armand, but teaching it is, nonetheless(i think).

: A bully who feels a little fragile(see Your other dream) so She needs a bunch of minions at Her side to look bigger... i guess this makes sense, given that You didn't think You were a bully.

Well, I don't bully other people much... whom I have been bullying is myself. This explains a lot to me when I'm supposed to 'be doing' everything I project on others somehow. It's just that some of it you are doing to yourself and not to other people. The person you are most cruel to, is often yourself.

: That's interesting, cause it confirms what i have guessed about male Divine Beloveds: That they really desire to empower 'Their' Woman's Self; interesting that he cared about that abandoned fragmant of Your past and as it seems, even achieve to reconcile You with that Shadowy aspect. It's moving.

Yes, it is. And why would I want him to leave any part of me abandoned? What he was howing is exactly how it needs to happen.

: That's a tricky one. Left me no chance than to expand a little
: A masculine piece of You would relate to the Divine Beloved, who is obviously quite fond of You.

: Indeed there are such guys, who only seek to belittle You as a woman, but nonetheless it looks like a projection of Your Self-discontent on that guy in Your dream. The Shadow reflecting it back at you;
: of course there is sort of a male macho hell 'til this day in many or most spots on earth with bitching, intimidating males, but that sillyness can be viewed as an action of a *collective Shadow*, revealing again unwelcome, valuable truth.
: The normal individual Shadow reveals his message from within, by unwelcome ungrounding, bugging sensations etc, but the collective Shadow causes annoyance in public thru offense etc.
: A harsh demonstration that you have created hell(You created it, since it is a collective hell; participating in a crime is organized crime and of heavier seriousness than single deed).
: So this kind of annoyance by stupid males is Shadow speech of collectively created hell.
: As usual there is fear to take (individual) responsibility for this and You project it on that bringer of bad tidings(that macho type thing) who only functions as a tool of the collective Shadow.

I guess no one can escape having to deal with that collective material. The thing for me, is that I don't have to actually encounter that 'such guys' person... I only have to encounter the female shadow projections of the men in my life. I absorb stuff like that like a sponge. Then I have to deal with it. Good luck I am finally becoming aware of it.

Perhaps this figure was created by the fact that I  entertained that common, deluded hope that if I could just become perfect, the hate would disappear. But that's a game you can never win, it's just a trap. His idea is that I become perfect and flawless in the eyes if the world, or I die. Any failure on my part is a matter of life and death. I guess it's a warped form of protection, since my survival seemed to depend on it.

: That's also part of the collective hell, could be inspiration for a thriller scene, with all the psycho-stuff and intimidation, include laughing and leering; elements of Marquis de Sade i would guess, or that Gwendoline story by John Willie.
: Again, a position of power would take responsibility and admit firstly, that we attracted this; and that it's again a projection; of course again i have to share that collective responsibility with You, isn't this better?

Hmm... I am kinda hoping that individual responsibility would suffice.

: these things are not a matter of personal strength alone; We have created a system in favor of psychopaths, be they ghosts, animals, men, warfare kids, killer bees, HIV virus stems etc. To clear this we need a higher level of common sense, which seems also provided by Goddess, within FST, what a grace !

If I have to rely on the rest of the world to change anything... that just seems hopeless to me. Some occult writer said something like (don't remember who) that when a person stops being influenced by the outside, is when they can start to have an influence. I guess that would be a matter of reversing the flow. But the whole thing may be a paradox, that Hawaiian guy that was discussed here earlier certainly seemed to be able to affect things all on his own - but there seemed to be some concerns on doing it in the right way to not attract Karma. Perhaps it's somewhat advanced. I feel I am still taking baby steps.

Ylva

[Vyana]

%rdquoAnd obvious is not the presenter, so near is that collecting box before the nose, that you can't see the soldier; certain pangs of conscience are the closest hint i can get, hinting at the Shadow Self.%rdquo

If this is the Shadow Self, I am indeed very acquainted to it since I was a young boy. I was a very quiet boy and was seldom up to any mischief. Still I was often overwhelmed by strong feelings of guilt, such as when I tried to make love to a neighbor%rsquos girl. In that case I suppose I had some reason to feel guilty. But in most cases, it was only about very insignificant things (as that was almost all I did). They were probably sometimes only symbolic, a lesson to learn, such as when I took some totally unimportant waste from one persons land and moved it to another person%rsquos property. I was awake that night worrying about it for hours and wanted to go back in the middle of the night to put it back. The lesson was that I had no right to remove things from others property or to decide for others what was important and what was only waste. I have had these outbursts of guilt all my life, but as I grew older they got less frequent and less overwhelming. I suppose I learned to analyze the situation and decide for myself what the lesson was and whether I was rightfully to blame or not. These attacks have also been connected to what I have later recognized as my kundalini experience. In periods where I had a lot of glimpses of higher states of consciousness, they got stronger and more frequent. As a boy I thought I just had a week nervous system. Still, that does not seem to have been the case.

[juergen]

You did very fine with Go live editor! That blue hue makes the whole thing much easier to read. Is it a text based editor, i guess? I'll also give it a color try; maybe exchange Your blue value with the red value, let's see, what symmetrie will do.
That Shadow theme is really a complex thing, sometimes i get confused and forget what it is all about( create more Karma and increase the veil of forgetfulness ) All in all however discussing it here is fairly deepening.
Hope this color experiment ain't gonna mess, but here it is...

: Yes, I feel it was definitely saying that if he can't see me, how can he ask me to dance? I wanted to be invisible, because I was worried that the other woman (older, more experienced) would make fun of me and completely humiliate me if I appeared to be interested. It didn't feel safe I guess. I was very young in the dream. But it was almost like 'switching roles' with myself in the earlier dream. This was like a year ago though.

i think it's like with black magick; there is a basic fear of growth, so we consider elements of power(/elements of Self) as black magick, abandon our own position of interest.
And often or most time someone superior appears, a parent, a friend, a teacher, something like this and and we assume their contradicting position. Its not so much what we really do(under external force) but what we internalize.
As for that original element of our own power however, we take a reluctant, averse, disowning position.
And together this constitutes a problem.
There is also sort of conscience associated to this, but not one in our interest.

As a last resort the devil appears and guides us back to normalcy.
He does this by exactly or quite exactly doing the same as we did in the procecess so far, holding us simply the mirror before the nose, over and over again 'til we get nauseous and vomit it out to be restored.
There are two ways of projections, a carrot-type and a stick-type projection:

By assuming our superior's position we behave like a carrot donor: mild, yielding, friendly, thus THE DEVIL shows a projection from the superior on ourselves which is truly an introversion. This comes as repeated thoughts of what 'is right', 'who we think we are', or kind of lulling impressions and desire for these impressions: internalizing tv-shows, buying-music, "lovely" animations, "spiritual" music, addictive fragrances, sugar, "chocolate and strawberries" etc.: ideal world, similar to the relation with The Divine Beloved, but external: from outside of us. Becoming strikingly receptive for exterior influences: lifestyles, opinions.

By rejecting our own position of power we behave like a stick poker, thus THE DEVIL initiates  projections from us on anyone else who is maybe a little bit worse.
For example a Pro Domme lets Her clients normally alive, so they can come and pay Her again and again, but the pirates torture their "clients" to death and they have to dispose of their corpses too, so this is worse. If a Domme's Shadow makes such a projection She will eventually feel easier with Herself. This is conscience from our own position: true conscience, the conscience from the DEVIL, King of Hell(The Shadow, The Portal Guardian).

So the Devil in both cases is reflecting our own carrot or stick game respectively, healing by doing the same thing, which is also called Homeopathy.
--------
So, the Ylva is in fear of the black magick of the Bully(an element of Herself), which could be integrated to make Her grow; at the same time there are a lot of external beings, usually experienced as superiors, whose position is that Ylva is a whispy not so worthy brat, certainly no bully, and should not grow out of control, so logically Ylva assumes that position. As a great Homeopath, The Devil sends Her the same thoughts to Her Dreams(heal like with like), so She wonders what this is all about, until She hears of the Devil, King of Hell. This is for the carrot side: who you think you are; the Stick side is about who you think you are not. Your rejection, 'black magick', sarcasm: the appearance of the bully in Your Dreams; maybe the bully is a bit overdrawn so You can have an easier option to integrate the Intimidator into real live; much fun !

The older woman is also a projection of Your intimidator-power-element onto "someone else". And She's You, but the younger Woman is Your illusion of You.

Hope this is a scheme that works!

: So if the Shadow didn't appear in the dreams... we would never see and be warned about what is there.

Yes, but the Devil is also diabolic and wants to get attention and be interpreted; for a while he misleads people, causing them some pain, harm, makes us judgemental against our projection targets and void of power at the same time...(In Homeopathy this is called first aggravation)
Are we now Satanists? LOL !

: When you are saying this.. I think I have to rent or buy Pink Floyd's 'The Wall' soon... maybe there will be something interesting there... saw it ages ago.

Thanks, will see if i find it at youtube..
In younger times i often missed the texts, now finding out how important they are, even if the music is not always exactly rightly hitting in the center of the nail('though Pink Floyd do fairly well).
Another guide for me to the Wall has become the medieval city walls: understanding that they are not just a wall but very complex systems of sticks and carrots: welcoming comittees and cruise missiles; i guess for each power element of oneself there is a welcoming committee(internal submission to a "superior") and a little canon in that wall

: Well, I don't bully other people much... whom I have been bullying is myself. This explains a lot to me when I'm supposed to 'be doing' everything I project on others somehow. It's just that some of it you are doing to yourself and not to other people. The person you are most cruel to, is often yourself.

Yep! But then it may be time for doing a little black magick !

: I guess no one can escape having to deal with that collective material. The thing for me, is that I don't have to actually encounter that 'such guys' person... I only have to encounter the female shadow projections of the men in my life. I absorb stuff like that like a sponge. Then I have to deal with it. Good luck I am finally becoming aware of it.

: Perhaps this figure was created by the fact that I  entertained that common, deluded hope that if I could just become perfect, the hate would disappear. But that's a game you can never win, it's just a trap. His idea is that I become perfect and flawless in the eyes if the world, or I die. Any failure on my part is a matter of life and death. I guess it's a warped form of protection, since my survival seemed to depend on it.

For a male like me this is unbelievable! But i remember a neighbour a medical student, who told somewhat behind hand, that it was not rare that the most attractive women showed up in hospital with suicide; when about 13, the mother of a schoolfriend was buried, one who touched me in a second when i was first at their home. So i believe You, talking about matters of life and death; good that You are safe! Shure the safety net will unfold bigger

: If I have to rely on the rest of the world to change anything... that just seems hopeless to me. Some occult writer said something like (don't remember who) that when a person stops being influenced by the outside, is when they can start to have an influence. I guess that would be a matter of reversing the flow. But the whole thing may be a paradox, that Hawaiian guy that was discussed here earlier certainly seemed to be able to affect things all on his own - but there seemed to be some concerns on doing it in the right way to not attract Karma. Perhaps it's somewhat advanced. I feel I am still taking baby steps.

baby steps, lovely! exactly what i'm trying, too! Not always a paragon, but hopefully not too much away from the track. I'm quite confident that we can become vessels of power on this path and this way get some influence on co-creation; and the Wall is certainly kind of a key to it.

kind smiles,

juergen.

: : Thanks for that rich dream stuff of Yours, i don't dream so much, so i'm like a Vampire about other peoples dreams, sooo instructive !

: Aghh, it's so easy to miss
: posts here! And I'm still confused about how to get a post to appear lower down in the tree structure. I have now taken this to the almighty GoLive <--------TM web editor so I can color my text, see if it works. Well, it seems I still have to rewrite it here because the code has paragraphs and stuff. If I forget just one closing font tag, the whole rest of the text gets colored.

: Glad you don't mind reading other people's dream stuff. I find dreams and dialogue with dream figures are my main place for finding guidance, probably some kind of combination of both having immense imagination and tending to get in the way of myself when I'm awake.

:
: : So when you became invisible and shy in that dream, that wasn't probably agreeable. Probably another hint at disowning part of your Self, thus clearly Shadow-stuff content.

: Yes, I feel it was definitely saying that if he can't see me, how can he ask me to dance? I wanted to be invisible, because I was worried that the other woman (older, more experienced) would make fun of me and completely humiliate me if I appeared to be interested. It didn't feel safe I guess. I was very young in the dream. But it was almost like 'switching roles' with myself in the earlier dream. This was like a year ago though.

:
: : Such a wall is of course life-threatening in its consequences, and the Shadow is that Divine part, gracious enough to give us some hints, so we can lower that wall and get more and more goodies from the Unconscious into the conscious mind to work potentially richer.

: So if the Shadow didn't appear in the dreams... we would never see and be warned about what is there.

:
: : Then there are persons with a more or less mature conscience, which means that we enter a habitual dialog with conscience(or The Shadow) about all possible things, at a stage when fear of responsibility is released out of the wall, so that responsibility becomes an option;

: When you are saying this.. I think I have to rent or buy Pink Floyd's 'The Wall' soon... maybe there will be something interesting there... saw it ages ago.

:
: : That dialogue with conscience however, can also be considered a grace of the Shadow. how far this is special for Shamans i can not tell.

: I don't think you have to be a Shaman to use some shamanic techniques. It just doesn't make you a Shaman. One aspect of shamanism would probably be that you can also enter into and converse with ~other~ people's subconscius worlds and characters, not that I know that much about it.
:  
: : I don't think i am a Shaman, but this isn't strange to me either; sometimes my spiteful Ex is turning up as a spokesperson, sometimes other people, according to the situation. Not a special Teacher like Mystress' Armand, but teaching it is, nonetheless(i think).

:
: : A bully who feels a little fragile(see Your other dream) so She needs a bunch of minions at Her side to look bigger... i guess this makes sense, given that You didn't think You were a bully.

: Well, I don't bully other people much... whom I have been bullying is myself. This explains a lot to me when I'm supposed to 'be doing' everything I project on others somehow. It's just that some of it you are doing to yourself and not to other people. The person you are most cruel to, is often yourself.

:
: : That's interesting, cause it confirms what i have guessed about male Divine Beloveds: That they really desire to empower 'Their' Woman's Self; interesting that he cared about that abandoned fragmant of Your past and as it seems, even achieve to reconcile You with that Shadowy aspect. It's moving.

: Yes, it is. And why would I want him to leave any part of me abandoned? What he was howing is exactly how it needs to happen.

: : That's a tricky one. Left me no chance than to expand a little
: : A masculine piece of You would relate to the Divine Beloved, who is obviously quite fond of You.

: : Indeed there are such guys, who only seek to belittle You as a woman, but nonetheless it looks like a projection of Your Self-discontent on that guy in Your dream. The Shadow reflecting it back at you;
: : of course there is sort of a male macho hell 'til this day in many or most spots on earth with bitching, intimidating males, but that sillyness can be viewed as an action of a *collective Shadow*, revealing again unwelcome, valuable truth.
: : The normal individual Shadow reveals his message from within, by unwelcome ungrounding, bugging sensations etc, but the collective Shadow causes annoyance in public thru offense etc.
: : A harsh demonstration that you have created hell(You created it, since it is a collective hell; participating in a crime is organized crime and of heavier seriousness than single deed).
: : So this kind of annoyance by stupid males is Shadow speech of collectively created hell.
: : As usual there is fear to take (individual) responsibility for this and You project it on that bringer of bad tidings(that macho type thing) who only functions as a tool of the collective Shadow.

: I guess no one can escape having to deal with that collective material. The thing for me, is that I don't have to actually encounter that 'such guys' person... I only have to encounter the female shadow projections of the men in my life. I absorb stuff like that like a sponge. Then I have to deal with it. Good luck I am finally becoming aware of it.

: Perhaps this figure was created by the fact that I  entertained that common, deluded hope that if I could just become perfect, the hate would disappear. But that's a game you can never win, it's just a trap. His idea is that I become perfect and flawless in the eyes if the world, or I die. Any failure on my part is a matter of life and death. I guess it's a warped form of protection, since my survival seemed to depend on it.

:
: : That's also part of the collective hell, could be inspiration for a thriller scene, with all the psycho-stuff and intimidation, include laughing and leering; elements of Marquis de Sade i would guess, or that Gwendoline story by John Willie.
: : Again, a position of power would take responsibility and admit firstly, that we attracted this; and that it's again a projection; of course again i have to share that collective responsibility with You, isn't this better?

: Hmm... I am kinda hoping that individual responsibility would suffice.

:
: : these things are not a matter of personal strength alone; We have created a system in favor of psychopaths, be they ghosts, animals, men, warfare kids, killer bees, HIV virus stems etc. To clear this we need a higher level of common sense, which seems also provided by Goddess, within FST, what a grace !

:
: If I have to rely on the rest of the world to change anything... that just seems hopeless to me. Some occult writer said something like (don't remember who) that when a person stops being influenced by the outside, is when they can start to have an influence. I guess that would be a matter of reversing the flow. But the whole thing may be a paradox, that Hawaiian guy that was discussed here earlier certainly seemed to be able to affect things all on his own - but there seemed to be some concerns on doing it in the right way to not attract Karma. Perhaps it's somewhat advanced. I feel I am still taking baby steps.

: Ylva

[juergen]

Guilt feelings are negative, and cannot be Devil's  work since he is a guide, a friend. I would call it "Pseudo conscience". But the Devil or Portal Guardian, helps us by reflecting this nonsense back 'till we finally see the truth: that it is really nonsense(that guilt pangs stuff).
So You say that guilt outbursts grew lesser as you  grew older; indicating that the healing principle works. I have more details in the reply to Ylva, yeah She's a lady...
Hey once more: The PG seems have done His work, but as you analyzed it, you must have messed it up again: Your beliefs of 'being rightfully to blame' etc: seems you blamed yourself against your own very interests! Then of corse Karma is built, to show up on your kundalini work.
Even if under outward world conditions it may seem opportune to keep to the the laws, there is no necessary need to feel guilty after being 'disobedient', isn't it?

: %rdquoAnd obvious is not the presenter, so near is that collecting box before the nose, that you can't see the soldier; certain pangs of conscience are the closest hint i can get, hinting at the Shadow Self.%rdquo

: If this is the Shadow Self, I am indeed very acquainted to it since I was a young boy. I was a very quiet boy and was seldom up to any mischief. Still I was often overwhelmed by strong feelings of guilt, such as when I tried to make love to a neighbor%rsquos girl. In that case I suppose I had some reason to feel guilty. But in most cases, it was only about very insignificant things (as that was almost all I did). They were probably sometimes only symbolic, a lesson to learn, such as when I took some totally unimportant waste from one persons land and moved it to another person%rsquos property. I was awake that night worrying about it for hours and wanted to go back in the middle of the night to put it back. The lesson was that I had no right to remove things from others property or to decide for others what was important and what was only waste. I have had these outbursts of guilt all my life, but as I grew older they got less frequent and less overwhelming. I suppose I learned to analyze the situation and decide for myself what the lesson was and whether I was rightfully to blame or not. These attacks have also been connected to what I have later recognized as my kundalini experience. In periods where I had a lot of glimpses of higher states of consciousness, they got stronger and more frequent. As a boy I thought I just had a week nervous system. Still, that does not seem to have been the case.

[juergen]

Some experiences:
Once on grounding, when sparking the center of the earth, i had a vision of a 1:1 contact with a Divine Woman in a sort of a cave; She stood before me, and had a light in Her right hand which was all light present and firstly i only knew She was there, felt Her Power, could and would not move a muscle, such solemn feelings.
Then i got to see Her face and Her gaze had all the power of the world over me; a bit later She "scanned me sexually" with Her Yoni up and down along the spine me lying or reclyning on the back, after a few more events, the confined cave was all glowing light but not very bright.

So this was quite an intimate encounter, wow!
I think the Divine Beloved of a male corresponds to the 1:1 symbol of the 2 chalices the higher poured into the lower:
http://www.fire-serpent.com/post/gemeos.jpg" /> very to the left!

We also know that the right brain side is the intuitive side(could be in the top of the same gemeos image of the above link).
Further it is known that 1:1 tuition is also the best (in-)tuition, first thinking of the teaching Mother and contact which is also 1:1, usually, or breast-feeding etc.
So this is taken as characteristic for the Feminine Spirit, Feminine Devine, Shakti.
The result of Divine Beloved's navigation is seen in its spontanous effect on the conscious mind.
In men, his effect has a monotonous, specialized, even monosyllable setting, according to the female 1:1 intensity.
Starting from this primary effect from the subconscious on the conscious mind and going onward however, the mind expands, systems are built: a tree structure, no more intimacy, but conscious male reality, technical atmosphere; instrumental, useful.
In Women we observe a more vivid, varied effect from the subconscious to consciousness( more talkative spontaneity; see the tree structure in the male conscious mind, above ). However from these single impacts on consciousness onward the female Higher Self(Type like the male Divine Beloved) seems to take over and again there is intimacy and intuition: classically the kindergarden nurse creates intimacy with each one of a whole bunch of kids, so they won't cry for home, or we know principally of the the famous female multitasking, which can be explained this way thru the special arrangement of spiritual Selves; so that beside a neutral merging of spirit(androgynism) there is also a disposition for difference.
Somewhere i've heard something about a 3rd section of this course, about "female Dominant Tantra", but i'm not shure if there is a possible connection of my deductions and observations with this; it would be mere coincidence, i think.

smiles

: I wonder if there are differences in how you encounter your DB depending on whether you are male or female?

: This was a rather interesting story from a man: http://www.innerbeloved.com/">Inner Beloved

: I'm sure there are  alot of indiviual differences though.

: --------

: : This sounds fascinating. To me DB is elusive, difficult to catch (as most women I suppose), but definitely not mean, not in any way. On the contrary, she is joyful and mysterious. If she has a shadow, I have not seen it (except maybe in real life ). But I have some kind of problem with the shadow too. As most upcoming insights are positive, it seems as if I blocked it out. Mystress says I don%rsquot want to se myself reflected. But I am starting to believe that it has just been so acquainted to me for so many years that I don%rsquot recognize it for what it is. I seldom remember my dreams, but when I do they are not that complicated. Most often they are some kind of adventure stories, where the main character is a very attractive girl who is somehow cooperating with me to reach some kind of goal. She looks different every time. Still, I believe she represents DB. Other characters are most often less important. In the same way, when I do the practice recommended in the DB-lesson, what I get is a lot of images of different beautiful women passing by at high speed. Sometimes I can see DB in a distance, as a dark haired Japanese girl riding on a 500 meter fire vomiting dragon, smiling and waving her arm at me. And sometimes, when I close my eyes, I can feel her touch and the healing energy movements it generates. However, it never got as real as Mystress says it can be.

: : : (quote)Most commonly I saw the shadow side of my Divine Beloved... but there was a period when a Grey Alien was the most persistent and steady face. I showed it to many people, and could always tell when they saw it by the look on their face because it was very disturbing to see.

: : : The DB has a Shadow too? I suspected this. Explains some things...

[Mystress]

:Juergen wrote: Thanks for that rich dream stuff of Yours, i don't dream so much, so i'm like a Vampire about other peoples dreams, sooo instructive !

Yes, it is an interesting thread. I enjoy how dream characters show aspects of ourselves.

Juergen wrote:
: Another term for Shadow is conscience, and the Shadow's acts are the voice of conscience, so in this way by The Shadow we can understand conscience(Which is a great experience for me, hooray!).

That is a very interesting insight. The shadow is about boundaries, the power chakra is about boundaries, and conscience divines what is Karma and what is Dharma.  Part of its nature is the Viel between the ego and the DB. Portal Guardian, the consciousness that guards the gates.. The angel with the flaming sword who guards Eden, none who fear may pass here. Border patrol.

  It is a reflection of your ego's fears. Shows it all to you, to give you the option to choose love and acceptance. You don't have to obey the shadow, just love it into unity.  It shows, what is to be surrendered.

Juergen wrote:
: That dialogue with conscience however, can also be considered a grace of the Shadow. how far this is special for Shamans i can not tell.
: I don't think i am a Shaman, but this isn't strange to me either; sometimes my spiteful Ex is turning up as a spokesperson, sometimes other people, according to the situation. Not a special Teacher like Mystress' Armand, but teaching it is, nonetheless(i think).

I agree. That is how it seems to be for Kundalites, what you see is yourself reflected and the shadow shows up as your issues with other people. What you judge and resist.

 I admire the simple and elegant work of Byron Katie: Judging is inevitable, just remember to always turn it around and apply it to yourself as well.

: Yvla Wrote:
: >I am not sure I have ONE shadow, or form of such. In dreams, I am often confronted by a group of people with a
: >female leader who is a bit like a typical school bully with minions (who don't really do much, but seem to be their
: >to make 'them' look bigger).
Juergen wrote:
: A bully who feels a little fragile(see Your other dream) so She needs a bunch of minions at Her side to look bigger... i guess this makes sense, given that You didn't think You were a bully.

: Yvla wrote:
: >One, very wispy and almost transparent character had gotten 'married' to my DB in my dream. (this was a ehile ago.)
: >DB seeemd shocked to see me, she didn't seem to know anything. It wasn't that there had been a mistake and he had
: >married the wrong person... but it appeared to be a temporary situation. I also got the feeling that it was because
: >it was the only part of me that had yet been available to him. He seemed to be trying to figure out what to do,
: >inevitably we would have to be together at some point... In the dream though, my biggest concern was that I didn't
: >want to hurt that girl... she seemed so lonely and helpless. He seemd to know this, but still wanting to reach me
: >somehow. I have later figured out that the situation seems to be that she is some kind of disowned fragment from my
: >teens and he is taking care of her for now.

Feels right to me. You know, he loves every part of you and it is not unfaithfullness to love your other parts. Through each sacred marriage your aspects become unified.

Juergen wrote:
: That's interesting, cause it confirms what i have guessed about male Divine Beloveds: That they really desire to empower 'Their' Woman's Self;

All Divine Beloveds seek to empower the spiritual spouse.

Juergen wrote:
: interesting that he cared about that abandoned fragmant of Your past and as it seems, even achieve to reconcile You with that Shadowy aspect. It's moving.

Of course. All your karma matters, to the DB.

: Yvla wrote:
: >Then there is one guy who just HATES me (and all women, for that matter). I am a worthless piece of shit who
: >shouldn't dare get in his way. Perhaps he's a masculine piece of me that hates being trapped in a female body, and
: >wishes that 'we' had been born a man, so this could have been 'his' life, and his body. He seems to feel that I am
: >absolutely incompetent at life and I should kill myself or something.

I have encountered such fellas before, in the feminine consciousness.  He is a manifestation of your issues with men, a shadow aspect of you. The bully is probably the woman he hates most- they reflect each other. She may be a manifestation of feminist victimhood/agression. "Take back the night" marches and "all men are potential rapists".
You created them both, and you can love them to death... into unity. They represent important aspects of your personal power.

Juergen wrote:
: As usual there is fear to take (individual) responsibility for this and You project it on that bringer of bad tidings(that macho type thing) who only functions as a tool of the collective Shadow.

: Yvla wrote:
: >Someimes there are some evil-seeming people who want to 'make a deal'. They want me to feel its all hopeless and
: >that its pointless for me to fight them because I am too weak and useless. If I give in, I always end up in big
: >trouble (I get sedated or locked up somewhere) and they laugh and leer at me and say that I will never see DB
: >again...

That is excellent. The astral- dream world is where the power chakra issues get worked out. I watched the movie "Labyrinth" last night- parts of it anyway, we had it on while making soap. One scene, big stone faces on the wall are saying "beware." I remembered them as "Nagging Doubts" but the script called them "False Alarms" and warned not to pay attention to their noise.

 Isn't it wonderful when dreams and art give such clear metaphors?  When you feel powerless you are more likely to bargain away power, and end up worse off. Truth is, you are never powerless but give power away to the nagging doubts that suck energy from goals.

 You have already said how you trade power for peace... leaving your body.  

Juergen wrote:
We have created a system in favor of psychopaths, be they ghosts, animals, men, warfare kids, killer bees, HIV virus stems etc.

Now you give power away to some strange entity called "the system." Is it anything like "the matrix?" Ya get what ya pray for...

: To clear this we need a higher level of common sense, which seems also provided by Goddess, within FST, what a grace !

Mysticims is common sense...?? I like that! LOL!! It does seem so, to me.

  Interesting thread, I am enjoying reading it.
   Blessings...

[Vyana]

Thank you! Okay! I suppose my tendency to assume responsibility for everything and feel guilty might first have been imposed on me by my mother, who recently passed away. She used guilt as a mean of upbringing and was so anxious to avoid conflicts with other parents (or even kids) that she most often directed her corrections at me even when I did not participate in the mischief. And when other parents apologized for the behavior of their kids, she always answered that I was not better, in spite of the fact that I was very quiet and calm. This might have made me somewhat anxious and thus made me an easy prey for bullies who wanted to project their feelings of guilt on somebody else by acting out their dramas. Often, especially in my fist year at school I think, I was blamed for things with which I had nothing to do or for which I was not responsible. For instance, I remember once, when I was 6 or maybe 7, a 2 or 3 years older boy attacked me in the boys%rsquo bathroom at school, tackling me into the washbasin, which came loose from the wall. Then he started yelling; %ldquoLook what you did! Destroyer! Destroyer! Destroyer!%rdquo several times. At 6 I wasn%rsquot able to defend myself in that situation. I was terrified. If he would blame me for what had happened, what could I do? Take on the blame and get punished or blame him and probably get punished anyway and then have him torturing me even worse later? I couldn%rsquot go to my parents, as they would only have blamed me. Therefore I quietly assumed responsibility in all bullying situations as an attempt to escape further harassment. It did not work. As I had exactly no defenses, the older boys could do exactly what the wanted with me. And they did %ndash I was tortures almost every break at school (there were no teachers patrolling the school yard). The pain was unbelievable. It was worse when I was 9, then it slowly got better, until we got a new teacher who started patrolling the school yard when I was 12. I suppose I am still trapped in the pattern of being harassed and then made responsible without any opportunity to defend myself. My problem is, what can I do about it?

:Guilt feelings are negative, and cannot be Devil's work since he is a guide, a friend. I would call it "Pseudo conscience". But the Devil or Portal Guardian, helps us by reflecting this nonsense back 'till we finally see the truth: that it is really nonsense(that guilt pangs stuff).
So You say that guilt outbursts grew lesser as you grew older; indicating that the healing principle works. I have more details in the reply to Ylva, yeah She's a lady...
:Hey once more: The PG seems have done His work, but as you analyzed it, you must have messed it up again: Your beliefs of 'being rightfully to blame' etc: seems you blamed yourself against your own very interests! Then of corse Karma is built, to show up on your kundalini work.

[juergen]

in the brain gender lesson,essay lesson there are very interesting remarks about the nature of karma, and its circular pattern.
So what appears to us as a theme of life or a lesson of life, a meaningful thing of destiny, is truly nothing but chaos, superstition, Karma, Ego.

But if we rank Karma as something Divine, it is of course hard to surrender.

There is often a confusion of the Devine with parental issues, since they appear as gods, and want to leave kids in that belief.

Then in school and with the bullies, i think you were very actively, 'though unconsciouly, doing that 'responsibility-magic' power-magick based on that ego-content, so it becomes hell.

Just being a good son: Mom wishes son responsible, son does some magick and appears responsible.
You say you were quiet, and your Mom was supposedly too; so it is likely, that she projected her Divine Beloved onto You, so you had to be responsible: it is not probable, that a mother wants her son really quiet and calm, so she must have really confused you(like all patriarchal women are extremely confusing, sigh).

Your obviously strong power chakra must have contributed its own share, so you work so successful against yourself.

Just be aware that you are a child of Goddess, not of your parents: they have nothing to do with Divine flow.

Btw: i'm enjoying a lot that story of your session with Mystress and the 'secretary' of Your Divine Beloved, Mystress got such a heartful of humor
Personally i find the idea suits me well, to be the secretary of my DB!

smiles...

: Thank you! Okay! I suppose my tendency to assume responsibility for everything and feel guilty might first have been imposed on me by my mother, who recently passed away. She used guilt as a mean of upbringing and was so anxious to avoid conflicts with other parents (or even kids) that she most often directed her corrections at me even when I did not participate in the mischief. And when other parents apologized for the behavior of their kids, she always answered that I was not better, in spite of the fact that I was very quiet and calm. This might have made me somewhat anxious and thus made me an easy prey for bullies who wanted to project their feelings of guilt on somebody else by acting out their dramas. Often, especially in my fist year at school I think, I was blamed for things with which I had nothing to do or for which I was not responsible. For instance, I remember once, when I was 6 or maybe 7, a 2 or 3 years older boy attacked me in the boys%rsquo bathroom at school, tackling me into the washbasin, which came loose from the wall. Then he started yelling; %ldquoLook what you did! Destroyer! Destroyer! Destroyer!%rdquo several times. At 6 I wasn%rsquot able to defend myself in that situation. I was terrified. If he would blame me for what had happened, what could I do? Take on the blame and get punished or blame him and probably get punished anyway and then have him torturing me even worse later? I couldn%rsquot go to my parents, as they would only have blamed me. Therefore I quietly assumed responsibility in all bullying situations as an attempt to escape further harassment. It did not work. As I had exactly no defenses, the older boys could do exactly what the wanted with me. And they did %ndash I was tortures almost every break at school (there were no teachers patrolling the school yard). The pain was unbelievable. It was worse when I was 9, then it slowly got better, until we got a new teacher who started patrolling the school yard when I was 12. I suppose I am still trapped in the pattern of being harassed and then made responsible without any opportunity to defend myself. My problem is, what can I do about it?

: :Guilt feelings are negative, and cannot be Devil's work since he is a guide, a friend. I would call it "Pseudo conscience". But the Devil or Portal Guardian, helps us by reflecting this nonsense back 'till we finally see the truth: that it is really nonsense(that guilt pangs stuff).
: So You say that guilt outbursts grew lesser as you grew older; indicating that the healing principle works. I have more details in the reply to Ylva, yeah She's a lady...
: :Hey once more: The PG seems have done His work, but as you analyzed it, you must have messed it up again: Your beliefs of 'being rightfully to blame' etc: seems you blamed yourself against your own very interests! Then of corse Karma is built, to show up on your kundalini work.

[juergen]

: Juergen wrote:
: : Another term for Shadow is conscience, and the Shadow's acts are the voice of conscience, so in this way by The Shadow we can understand conscience(Which is a great experience for me, hooray!).

: That is a very interesting insight. The shadow is about boundaries, the power chakra is about boundaries, and conscience divines what is Karma and what is Dharma.  Part of its nature is the Viel between the ego and the DB. Portal Guardian, the consciousness that guards the gates.. The angel with the flaming sword who guards Eden, none who fear may pass here. Border patrol.

:    It is a reflection of your ego's fears. Shows it all to you, to give you the option to choose love and acceptance. You don't have to obey the shadow, just love it into unity.  It shows, what is to be surrendered.

ThankYou! these ideas have been triggered from this:
The flaming sword is indeed a fearful thing, wild animals have fear of fire; so the flaming sword is a good symbol for the fear of Eden, fear of "the Lord", fear of the "Lord's Angel" or the Light.
Karma feels like hell(thru conscience) and hell is void of Love, so desire for Love becomes stronger, fear becomes outpowered. Fear of the flame, fear of the knife: fear of being cooked and eaten! Love-bites!
The PG and Divine Beloved work indeed hand in hand, so it is natural to love them altogether.

The power chakra does also work seemingly fearless, even when the fear of Eden is still not surrendered: As a state where everything seems alright, and failures appear to be 'tragic, undeserved, unforeseeable', where people turn away from their religion for unjust fits of fate...
I think it's about a compensation of one fear with another courage(of the power chakra). And perhaps that still present fear('fear of god') is used as a turn-on to have these adrenalin-kick sensations and experience these things for a while.

:   I admire the simple and elegant work of Byron Katie: Judging is inevitable, just remember to always turn it around and apply it to yourself as well.

Oh yes!!! It's fantastic: just to experiment replacing thoughts of unhappiness and helplessness with happier ones, by simple conversions; by shifting from helplessness to responsibility and initiative. Quite new to me; once i used to think: first make at least 100 revolutions, before any other action makes sense...
I think these are essentially moves from chaos to more order. Last not least it seems to be a method to learn from other peoples faults, instead of fruitless circular patterned judgements of their misbehavior.

: Juergen wrote:
: We have created a system in favor of psychopaths, be they ghosts, animals, men, warfare kids, killer bees, HIV virus stems etc.

: Now you give power away to some strange entity called "the system." Is it anything like "the matrix?" Ya get what ya pray for...

You caught me falling back into old thinking habits; feeling overwhelmed by an 'allmighty system', sliding unconsciously into negative prayer. If i'm separate from hell, i cannot be responsible and make it better.

: Mysticims is common sense...?? I like that! LOL!! It does seem so, to me.

That "Hawaian Guy"(Ho'oponopono) for instance, or Your own campaign for sexual freedom, or mystic teaching in general...Some are helping the police, or give advice: share uncommon knowledge.