The Tea Room

(quote)Most commonly I saw the shadow side of my Divine Beloved... but there was a period when a Grey Alien was the most persistent and steady face. I showed it to many people, and could always tell when they saw it by the look on their face because it was very disturbing to see.

The DB has a Shadow too? I suspected this. Explains some things...

The weirdest experience I ever personally had with a mirror was when I was in my teens. Somewhat drunk at a party, I went to the bathroom. I stared into the mirror and looked at myself. It looked like me, but at that moment I knew it wasn't me. It felt like someone alien was staring at me. Not an alien, but something alien. IT was staring at me. And then it felt like my mind split and one part was drunk and sleeping and the other part was completely sober and watching IT in the mirror, and it was watching me... I thought then maybe this is my enemy. This is the impostor who stole my body and all I can do is sit here and watch.

Somehow I knew then that a human being is not really what it seems to be. And it's like people are all pretending.

It was supposed to be me, but it wasn't. And then I left the room and watched IT talk to people, but IT was only going through the motions. And the other people were not real, just shells doing the same thing. And I thought that no one ever knows another, that no one ever touches another with something real and what was the point of the party and having 'fun' and people talking to each other at all...

Maybe that's why the most draining situations for me are crowds and social occasions. I feel like a puppet when I talk to people and when they are gone, I can return to sanity again. But now it's like whatever people are saying doesn't really matter because they are saying totally different things on another level. I think my brain gets confused and tired trying to reconcile two different realities.

: The DB has a Shadow too? I suspected this. Explains some things...

Heehee, no i don't think so!
There is only the one and only Shadow, but there may be some whim to trading it to various aspects of Self.

If You wait only a few lessons You'll probably find this answered timely.

There has already been a mention of the Shadow in lessons before the mirror game, but more in a greater picture. I then tried to understand the Shadow, though i seemingly was not supposed to get it then, or maybe some students get it by intuition even then. No need to haste and worry i think...

juergen.

: (quote)Most commonly I saw the shadow side of my Divine Beloved... but there was a period when a Grey Alien was the most persistent and steady face. I showed it to many people, and could always tell when they saw it by the look on their face because it was very disturbing to see.

: The DB has a Shadow too? I suspected this. Explains some things...

: The weirdest experience I ever personally had with a mirror was when I was in my teens. Somewhat drunk at a party, I went to the bathroom. I stared into the mirror and looked at myself. It looked like me, but at that moment I knew it wasn't me. It felt like someone alien was staring at me. Not an alien, but something alien. IT was staring at me. And then it felt like my mind split and one part was drunk and sleeping and the other part was completely sober and watching IT in the mirror, and it was watching me... I thought then maybe this is my enemy. This is the impostor who stole my body and all I can do is sit here and watch.

: Somehow I knew then that a human being is not really what it seems to be. And it's like people are all pretending.

: It was supposed to be me, but it wasn't. And then I left the room and watched IT talk to people, but IT was only going through the motions. And the other people were not real, just shells doing the same thing. And I thought that no one ever knows another, that no one ever touches another with something real and what was the point of the party and having 'fun' and people talking to each other at all...

: Maybe that's why the most draining situations for me are crowds and social occasions. I feel like a puppet when I talk to people and when they are gone, I can return to sanity again. But now it's like whatever people are saying doesn't really matter because they are saying totally different things on another level. I think my brain gets confused and tired trying to reconcile two different realities.

Yes, i also have made similar observations and experiences, like You talk of in these "nordic blues";
From a position of power and responsibility it becomes clear that we attracted and created these hells of social shallowness; i think there are few people who are unable to express something meaningful, once a little fire is set, mutual interest grows and exchange gets flowing. This way i often found low expectations largely surpassed.

Sometimes a little first step is all that's needed to create a warmer atmosphere, just a casual remark that shows another that they are noticed. We have driven it to a lot of distance and independance to the people next to us, but this is not irreversible, no shame is needed, we can just simply always learn to behave in other ways.

Some experiences of "alienation" might be due to the chakra levels, with there different consciousness, so this should not disturb us too much and we can grant this variation in personality to ourselves and others. Some people cultivate what is in carl jung's term a "persona", a personality of very fixed habits and such a persona may also be attributed to certain social events. Which may appear way of silly, but i think there is also something to watch, experience, learn, and last not least: to amuse, observing personas; only slowly i'm learning this lately, finding peace and enjoyment in this, longing for a position of power, where the environment has not to be 100% ideal; or: the worse the better :)

juergen.

: (quote)Most commonly I saw the shadow side of my Divine Beloved... but there was a period when a Grey Alien was the most persistent and steady face. I showed it to many people, and could always tell when they saw it by the look on their face because it was very disturbing to see.

: The DB has a Shadow too? I suspected this. Explains some things...

: The weirdest experience I ever personally had with a mirror was when I was in my teens. Somewhat drunk at a party, I went to the bathroom. I stared into the mirror and looked at myself. It looked like me, but at that moment I knew it wasn't me. It felt like someone alien was staring at me. Not an alien, but something alien. IT was staring at me. And then it felt like my mind split and one part was drunk and sleeping and the other part was completely sober and watching IT in the mirror, and it was watching me... I thought then maybe this is my enemy. This is the impostor who stole my body and all I can do is sit here and watch.

: Somehow I knew then that a human being is not really what it seems to be. And it's like people are all pretending.

: It was supposed to be me, but it wasn't. And then I left the room and watched IT talk to people, but IT was only going through the motions. And the other people were not real, just shells doing the same thing. And I thought that no one ever knows another, that no one ever touches another with something real and what was the point of the party and having 'fun' and people talking to each other at all...

: Maybe that's why the most draining situations for me are crowds and social occasions. I feel like a puppet when I talk to people and when they are gone, I can return to sanity again. But now it's like whatever people are saying doesn't really matter because they are saying totally different things on another level. I think my brain gets confused and tired trying to reconcile two different realities.

Hi, thanks for your reply!

I am familiar with the Shadow from Jung also, before this. I am a little confused when Mystress mentions a male Shadow in her lesson, I always thought the Shadow was 'supposed' to be the same sex as you. Perhaps it's more complex.

I am not sure I have ONE shadow, or form of such. In dreams, I am often confronted by a group of people  with a female leader who is a bit like a typical school bully with minions (who don't really do much, but seem to be their to make 'them' look bigger).

There seem to be other female fragments that are not strictly oppositional but somehow representing other disowned parts of self.

One, very wispy and almost transparent character had gotten 'married' to my DB in my dream. (this was a ehile ago.) DB seeemd shocked to see me, she didn't seem to know anything. It wasn't that there had been a mistake and he had married the wrong person... but it appeared to be a temporary situation. I also got the feeling that it was because it was the only part of me that had yet been available to him. He seemed to be trying to figure out what to do, inevitably we would have to be together at some point... In the dream though, my biggest concern was that I didn't want to hurt that girl... she seemed so lonely and helpless. He seemd to know this, but still wanting to reach me somehow. I have later figured out that the situation seems to be that she is some kind of disowned fragment from my teens and he is taking care of her for now.

In another dream I think I WAS her, and I couldn't reach DB because I had made myself invisible and I was too shy. I was a girl in my teens and had to watch him ask some woman who looked like the normal nowadays me to dance... while I was invisible and couldn't do anything. I didn't realize I had been making myself invisible until I woke up.

So I'm sure that wasn't a Shadow.

The most Shadow-like characters in my dreams seem to be the annoying group leader bully character and some dark male characters. Or monsters.

DB comes as light haired guy, white horse or mythical animal or point of light (very clear and undescribable energy - and these are sometimes out of reach or something tries to separate us), dark haired guy, (similar energy but with something more... something bad happened in the past but is being corrected, not sure what it is offhand).

Then there is one guy who just HATES me (and all women, for that matter). I am a worthless piece of shit who shouldn't dare get in his way. Perhaps he's a masculine piece of me that hates being trapped in a female body, and wishes that 'we' had been born a man, so this could have been 'his' life, and his body. He seems to feel that I am absolutely incompetent at life and I should kill myself or something.

Someimes there are some evil-seeming people who want to 'make a deal'. They want me to feel its all hopeless and that its pointless for me to fight them because I am too weak and useless. If I give in, I always end up in big trouble (I get sedated or locked up somewhere) and they laugh and leer at me and say that I will never see DB again...

Don't know if they have anything to do with the Shadow.

But I always dream that I am all sorts of people, both sexes. Sometimes I meet the characters, sometimes I am or become those characters... sometimes when I wake up, I am completely exhausted because of intense, epic dreams.

: Heehee, no i don't think so!
: There is only the one and only Shadow, but there may be some whim to trading it to various aspects of Self.

: If You wait only a few lessons You'll probably find this answered timely.

: There has already been a mention of the Shadow in lessons before the mirror game, but more in a greater picture. I then tried to understand the Shadow, though i seemingly was not supposed to get it then, or maybe some students get it by intuition even then. No need to haste and worry i think...

: juergen.

Hmm, a thought. If Mystress could act out her sadistic shadow male in the physical by being a dominatrix.

I would have to act mine out by killing myself... this doesn't seem very workable to me.

: Hi, thanks for your reply!

: I am familiar with the Shadow from Jung also, before this. I am a little confused when Mystress mentions a male Shadow in her lesson, I always thought the Shadow was 'supposed' to be the same sex as you. Perhaps it's more complex.

: I am not sure I have ONE shadow, or form of such. In dreams, I am often confronted by a group of people  with a female leader who is a bit like a typical school bully with minions (who don't really do much, but seem to be their to make 'them' look bigger).

: There seem to be other female fragments that are not strictly oppositional but somehow representing other disowned parts of self.

: One, very wispy and almost transparent character had gotten 'married' to my DB in my dream. (this was a ehile ago.) DB seeemd shocked to see me, she didn't seem to know anything. It wasn't that there had been a mistake and he had married the wrong person... but it appeared to be a temporary situation. I also got the feeling that it was because it was the only part of me that had yet been available to him. He seemed to be trying to figure out what to do, inevitably we would have to be together at some point... In the dream though, my biggest concern was that I didn't want to hurt that girl... she seemed so lonely and helpless. He seemd to know this, but still wanting to reach me somehow. I have later figured out that the situation seems to be that she is some kind of disowned fragment from my teens and he is taking care of her for now.

: In another dream I think I WAS her, and I couldn't reach DB because I had made myself invisible and I was too shy. I was a girl in my teens and had to watch him ask some woman who looked like the normal nowadays me to dance... while I was invisible and couldn't do anything. I didn't realize I had been making myself invisible until I woke up.

: So I'm sure that wasn't a Shadow.

: The most Shadow-like characters in my dreams seem to be the annoying group leader bully character and some dark male characters. Or monsters.

: DB comes as light haired guy, white horse or mythical animal or point of light (very clear and undescribable energy - and these are sometimes out of reach or something tries to separate us), dark haired guy, (similar energy but with something more... something bad happened in the past but is being corrected, not sure what it is offhand).

: Then there is one guy who just HATES me (and all women, for that matter). I am a worthless piece of shit who shouldn't dare get in his way. Perhaps he's a masculine piece of me that hates being trapped in a female body, and wishes that 'we' had been born a man, so this could have been 'his' life, and his body. He seems to feel that I am absolutely incompetent at life and I should kill myself or something.

: Someimes there are some evil-seeming people who want to 'make a deal'. They want me to feel its all hopeless and that its pointless for me to fight them because I am too weak and useless. If I give in, I always end up in big trouble (I get sedated or locked up somewhere) and they laugh and leer at me and say that I will never see DB again...

: Don't know if they have anything to do with the Shadow.

: But I always dream that I am all sorts of people, both sexes. Sometimes I meet the characters, sometimes I am or become those characters... sometimes when I wake up, I am completely exhausted because of intense, epic dreams.

:
: : Heehee, no i don't think so!
: : There is only the one and only Shadow, but there may be some whim to trading it to various aspects of Self.

: : If You wait only a few lessons You'll probably find this answered timely.

: : There has already been a mention of the Shadow in lessons before the mirror game, but more in a greater picture. I then tried to understand the Shadow, though i seemingly was not supposed to get it then, or maybe some students get it by intuition even then. No need to haste and worry i think...

: : juergen.

: (quote)Most commonly I saw the shadow side of my Divine Beloved... but there was a period when a Grey Alien was the most persistent and steady face. I showed it to many people, and could always tell when they saw it by the look on their face because it was very disturbing to see.

: The DB has a Shadow too? I suspected this. Explains some things...

Well, not exactly. Ego casts a shadow.  Ego is who you think you are: truth is, You are All. Shadow side, is the separation between: all that you think you are not.
 Kundalites relate to the shadow through the practice of "what you see is yourself reflected", owning projections & "Namaste." Examining hidden self centered motives to get to know who you really are. All.

 It is only for Shamans, that the Shadow takes form as a teacher presence.  

: The weirdest experience I ever personally had with a mirror was when I was in my teens. Somewhat drunk at a party, I went to the bathroom. I stared into the mirror and looked at myself. It looked like me, but at that moment I knew it wasn't me. It felt like someone alien was staring at me. Not an alien, but something alien. IT was staring at me. And then it felt like my mind split and one part was drunk and sleeping and the other part was completely sober and watching IT in the mirror, and it was watching me... I thought then maybe this is my enemy. This is the impostor who stole my body and all I can do is sit here and watch.

The Witness state and Grey alien possession feel remarkably similar.

: Somehow I knew then that a human being is not really what it seems to be. And it's like people are all pretending.

: It was supposed to be me, but it wasn't. And then I left the room and watched IT talk to people, but IT was only going through the motions. And the other people were not real, just shells doing the same thing. And I thought that no one ever knows another, that no one ever touches another with something real and what was the point of the party and having 'fun' and people talking to each other at all...

In social situations, sometimes I get knocked out of my body without realizing it, and the aloof judgemental alienated state you describe is one of the symptoms. When you are not in your body, you don't feel the love, the emotional exchange, and you miss out on the cues of the "Kinetic dance" of subtle body language signals. You also miss out on physical cues like your own fatigue or hunger... and so you feel that much worse when you come back and have to deal with having stressed and neglected the body by abandoning it for a while.

 Plus, you end up taking on more karma from people- the gaze of the Witness state energy projections trigger a backwash of karma from the people you aim it at... and you are not in the body to be filling it with your own presence and guarding your personal boundaries... you lose touch with those too because spirit has no boundaries.  

 Start to notice when you are feeling that specific type of alienation, and respond by grounding and focusing on your breathing for a while. Often that is enough to bring you back, but focusing on physical sensations is good too. Check in for feelings of hunger, thirst, aches and pains, look for desires, you can even pinch yourself, massage yourself or get a hug. Getting a hug is the last thing you might think to do, in that state so it is really helpful to have people around you who notice when you are really not present and will hug you back home again.

 My druid comes home from work every day, and his attention brings me back to my body, especially if I have been "away" at my desk writing... channelling the wisdom of the Void.  he comes come, kisses my hand and tells me about my day, gradually capturing my attention and bringing me back from wherever I got to, to feel my appetites and decide what is for dinner.

: Maybe that's why the most draining situations for me are crowds and social occasions. I feel like a puppet when I talk to people and when they are gone, I can return to sanity again. But now it's like whatever people are saying doesn't really matter because they are saying totally different things on another level. I think my brain gets confused and tired trying to reconcile two different realities.

You feel like a puppet because you are, when operating the body by remote control as if it is on strings. Focusing on the body, on breath and heartbeat brings you back to the body... back to sanity, as you say.

  Blessings...  

 
:   Kundalites relate to the shadow through the practice of "what you see is yourself reflected", owning projections & "Namaste." Examining hidden self centered motives to get to know who you really are. All.

:   It is only for Shamans, that the Shadow takes form as a teacher presence.

It makes sense to me that not everyone's experience would be the same, either. Well, at least I hope so. ;)

Examining would mostly be something you do in your normal awake time and then I can see that you could look at it more as 'shadow material' than a 'shadow person/character'.

In dreams though, this material seems to take the form of characters, because the information is communicated from the subconscious by story-telling and symbolism. Then it might not be as strange as I thought that the shadow type characters keep changing, as they would represent different projections. Since I'm not a Shaman. ;)

:    In social situations, sometimes I get knocked out of my body without realizing it, and the aloof judgemental alienated state you describe is one of the symptoms. When you are not in your body, you don't feel the love, the emotional exchange, and you miss out on the cues of the "Kinetic dance" of subtle body language signals. You also miss out on physical cues like your own fatigue or hunger... and so you feel that much worse when you come back and have to deal with having stressed and neglected the body by abandoning it for a while.

I guess I feel 'safer' in my body when I am alone. I'm one of those people who can't concentrate very well when there are people around.

:   Plus, you end up taking on more karma from people- the gaze of the Witness state energy projections trigger a backwash of karma from the people you aim it at... and you are not in the body to be filling it with your own presence and guarding your personal boundaries... you lose touch with those too because spirit has no boundaries.

I wonder if that might be caused by having had experiences where one has felt powerless to guard personal boundaries... so it feels better to just be away.

:   Start to notice when you are feeling that specific type of alienation, and respond by grounding and focusing on your breathing for a while. Often that is enough to bring you back, but focusing on physical sensations is good too. Check in for feelings of hunger, thirst, aches and pains, look for desires, you can even pinch yourself, massage yourself or get a hug. Getting a hug is the last thing you might think to do, in that state so it is really helpful to have people around you who notice when you are really not present and will hug you back home again.

Sounds like a great idea!

This sounds fascinating. To me DB is elusive, difficult to catch (as most women I suppose), but definitely not mean, not in any way. On the contrary, she is joyful and mysterious. If she has a shadow, I have not seen it (except maybe in real life ;) ). But I have some kind of problem with the shadow too. As most upcoming insights are positive, it seems as if I blocked it out. Mystress says I don%rsquot want to se myself reflected. But I am starting to believe that it has just been so acquainted to me for so many years that I don%rsquot recognize it for what it is. I seldom remember my dreams, but when I do they are not that complicated. Most often they are some kind of adventure stories, where the main character is a very attractive girl who is somehow cooperating with me to reach some kind of goal. She looks different every time. Still, I believe she represents DB. Other characters are most often less important. In the same way, when I do the practice recommended in the DB-lesson, what I get is a lot of images of different beautiful women passing by at high speed. Sometimes I can see DB in a distance, as a dark haired Japanese girl riding on a 500 meter fire vomiting dragon, smiling and waving her arm at me. And sometimes, when I close my eyes, I can feel her touch and the healing energy movements it generates. However, it never got as real as Mystress says it can be.

: (quote)Most commonly I saw the shadow side of my Divine Beloved... but there was a period when a Grey Alien was the most persistent and steady face. I showed it to many people, and could always tell when they saw it by the look on their face because it was very disturbing to see.

: The DB has a Shadow too? I suspected this. Explains some things...

I wonder if there are differences in how you encounter your DB depending on whether you are male or female?

This was a rather interesting story from a man: Inner Beloved

I'm sure there are  alot of indiviual differences though.

--------

: This sounds fascinating. To me DB is elusive, difficult to catch (as most women I suppose), but definitely not mean, not in any way. On the contrary, she is joyful and mysterious. If she has a shadow, I have not seen it (except maybe in real life ;) ). But I have some kind of problem with the shadow too. As most upcoming insights are positive, it seems as if I blocked it out. Mystress says I don%rsquot want to se myself reflected. But I am starting to believe that it has just been so acquainted to me for so many years that I don%rsquot recognize it for what it is. I seldom remember my dreams, but when I do they are not that complicated. Most often they are some kind of adventure stories, where the main character is a very attractive girl who is somehow cooperating with me to reach some kind of goal. She looks different every time. Still, I believe she represents DB. Other characters are most often less important. In the same way, when I do the practice recommended in the DB-lesson, what I get is a lot of images of different beautiful women passing by at high speed. Sometimes I can see DB in a distance, as a dark haired Japanese girl riding on a 500 meter fire vomiting dragon, smiling and waving her arm at me. And sometimes, when I close my eyes, I can feel her touch and the healing energy movements it generates. However, it never got as real as Mystress says it can be.

: : (quote)Most commonly I saw the shadow side of my Divine Beloved... but there was a period when a Grey Alien was the most persistent and steady face. I showed it to many people, and could always tell when they saw it by the look on their face because it was very disturbing to see.

: : The DB has a Shadow too? I suspected this. Explains some things...

Thank you! This is interesting stuff. I am sure there are differences. For instance, I have no negative fantasies concerning women (or anything else). This idea that the beloved is imprisoned reminds me of a conversation with my DB at a session with Mystress. We met the Japanese girl in a city at the bottom of the sea, far away down under the water. She had just told us that the five hundred meters dragon was her pet. Then we asked her (Mystress advised me to ask her) why she needed the dragon and what use she had of him. She answered that sometimes it sometimes got lonely %ldquodown here%rdquo. (She did not seem to be trapped in a dungeon though, flying on a huge dragon through the space as she was.) Mystress concluded that the Japanese girl was not really my DB and that DB had sent her %ldquosecretary%rdquo instead of coming her self. We asked her why she had done that, but I think we got no real answer. At that same session something scary was at one point just about to materialize in a corner of the room, but it never did.

: I wonder if there are differences in how you encounter your DB depending on whether you are male or female?

: This was a rather interesting story from a man: Inner Beloved

: I'm sure there are  alot of indiviual differences though.

Obviously, here is a difference. To Mystress, the divine beloved is the body-mind, the subconscious, representing the whole body, but at the web-site it seems to represent the right half of the brain, which is perceived as feminine (and probably the right part of the brain in women, although this doesn%rsquot seems totally consequent).

: Thank you! This is interesting stuff. I am sure there are differences. For instance, I have no negative fantasies concerning women (or anything else). This idea that the beloved is imprisoned reminds me of a conversation with my DB at a session with Mystress. We met the Japanese girl in a city at the bottom of the sea, far away down under the water. She had just told us that the five hundred meters dragon was her pet. Then we asked her (Mystress advised me to ask her) why she needed the dragon and what use she had of him. She answered that sometimes it sometimes got lonely %ldquodown here%rdquo. (She did not seem to be trapped in a dungeon though, flying on a huge dragon through the space as she was.) Mystress concluded that the Japanese girl was not really my DB and that DB had sent her %ldquosecretary%rdquo instead of coming her self. We asked her why she had done that, but I think we got no real answer. At that same session something scary was at one point just about to materialize in a corner of the room, but it never did.

:
: : I wonder if there are differences in how you encounter your DB depending on whether you are male or female?

: : This was a rather interesting story from a man: Inner Beloved

: : I'm sure there are  alot of indiviual differences though.

Thanks for that rich dream stuff of Yours, i don't dream so much, so i'm like a Vampire about other peoples dreams, sooo instructive !

>In another dream I think I WAS her, and I couldn't reach DB because I had made myself invisible and I was too shy.
>I was a girl in my teens and had to watch him ask some woman who looked like the normal nowadays me to dance...
>while I was invisible and couldn't do anything. I didn't realize I had been making myself invisible until I woke
>up.
>
>So I'm sure that wasn't a Shadow.

Hmm, "a" Shadow or THE Shadow, i think it leads to confusion to speak of "a"... .
On the other hand the Shadow can be represented by persons or maybe symbols or allegories, and they may vary.
What we realize of the Shadow can be manifold, but it's always not a welcomed realisation; probably a harsh one to prevent a harsher course of events.
So when you became invisible and shy in that dream, that wasn't probably agreeable. Probably another hint at disowning part of your Self, thus clearly Shadow-stuff content.
Mostly and firstly, we are only aware of such content, often feeling bugged, maybe even feel hostile toward disowned parts of the Self(very similar to projections on other persons). But the Shadow Self remains invisible here, abstract.
Another term for Shadow is conscience, and the Shadow's acts are the voice of conscience, so in this way by The Shadow we can understand conscience(Which is a great experience for me, hooray!).
Then a measure for the quantity of shadow-events(become ungrounded, being bugged, nightmares/disturbing dreams, fears, feelings of hell/being shit) is a measure of the Karma-stuff that separates us from the position of power and responsibility.
This leads to the concept of the wall of separation or the wall of forgetfulness. Blocking powerful content from our consciousness, making the Sushumna a dire narrow little river, strangulating it, strangulating us.
That wall makes us forget our Divine Self in two ways:
1. as a consequence of resistance, new hell stuff is given extra permission to pass that wall(our projections and hate tirades onto others, fanatisms); --> patching up the screen with shit.
2. the ordinary blocking function as a passive wall, depriving us of ways to act and express, depriving us of using poison that can destroy and heal altogether..depriving us of stuff that needs consideration and is not "undoubtly good"(which concept is also an ingredient of the wall).
Such a wall is of course life-threatening in its consequences, and the Shadow is that Divine part, gracious enough to give us some hints, so we can lower that wall and get more and more goodies from the Unconscious into the conscious mind to work potentially richer.
Then there are persons with a more or less mature conscience, which means that we enter a habitual dialog with conscience(or The Shadow) about all possible things, at a stage when fear of responsibility is released out of the wall, so that responsibility becomes an option;
[without responsibility, good intentions go the way of hell and evolve worse than bad intentions would probably do. It's like biking downhill on a bicycle without handlebars: downhill is easy, but this way it becomes a curse. So good intentions without responsibility turn into a curse. Germans did the Holocaust with good intentions but without responsibility, and this ain't over yet: to follow a directive blindly is still considered a good habit of good intention by most Germans, and judging the Serbs for genocide at the same time, is only a confirmation, of what we are learning about the Shadow. In the modern civilised world and its psychology, that sort of conformism is also euphemistically termed as conscience, Freudians, Jungians: super-ego, moral complex]
That dialogue with conscience however, can also be considered a grace of the Shadow. how far this is special for Shamans i can not tell.
I don't think i am a Shaman, but this isn't strange to me either; sometimes my spiteful Ex is turning up as a spokesperson, sometimes other people, according to the situation. Not a special Teacher like Mystress' Armand, but teaching it is, nonetheless(i think).

>I am not sure I have ONE shadow, or form of such. In dreams, I am often confronted by a group of people with a
>female leader who is a bit like a typical school bully with minions (who don't really do much, but seem to be their
>to make 'them' look bigger).

A bully who feels a little fragile(see Your other dream) so She needs a bunch of minions at Her side to look bigger... i guess this makes sense, given that You didn't think You were a bully.

>One, very wispy and almost transparent character had gotten 'married' to my DB in my dream. (this was a ehile ago.)
>DB seeemd shocked to see me, she didn't seem to know anything. It wasn't that there had been a mistake and he had
>married the wrong person... but it appeared to be a temporary situation. I also got the feeling that it was because
>it was the only part of me that had yet been available to him. He seemed to be trying to figure out what to do,
>inevitably we would have to be together at some point... In the dream though, my biggest concern was that I didn't
>want to hurt that girl... she seemed so lonely and helpless. He seemd to know this, but still wanting to reach me
>somehow. I have later figured out that the situation seems to be that she is some kind of disowned fragment from my
>teens and he is taking care of her for now.

That's interesting, cause it confirms what i have guessed about male Divine Beloveds: That they really desire to empower 'Their' Woman's Self; interesting that he cared about that abandoned fragmant of Your past and as it seems, even achieve to reconcile You with that Shadowy aspect. It's moving.
Hey! there is an old marriage custom from the past, You find it in "The Taming of the Shrew": Amorous Lucentio wants lovely Bianca, the younger sister of Katharina(The "Shrew"), but first the elder one has to be married off.
Thats Your rejected character from Your teens-past...ok? ;)

>Then there is one guy who just HATES me (and all women, for that matter). I am a worthless piece of shit who
>shouldn't dare get in his way. Perhaps he's a masculine piece of me that hates being trapped in a female body, and
>wishes that 'we' had been born a man, so this could have been 'his' life, and his body. He seems to feel that I am
>absolutely incompetent at life and I should kill myself or something.

That's a tricky one. Left me no chance than to expand a little :)
A masculine piece of You would relate to the Divine Beloved, who is obviously quite fond of You.

Indeed there are such guys, who only seek to belittle You as a woman, but nonetheless it looks like a projection of Your Self-discontent on that guy in Your dream. The Shadow reflecting it back at you;
of course there is sort of a male macho hell 'til this day in many or most spots on earth with bitching, intimidating males, but that sillyness can be viewed as an action of a *collective Shadow*, revealing again unwelcome, valuable truth.
The normal individual Shadow reveals his message from within, by unwelcome ungrounding, bugging sensations etc, but the collective Shadow causes annoyance in public thru offense etc.
A harsh demonstration that you have created hell(You created it, since it is a collective hell; participating in a crime is organized crime and of heavier seriousness than single deed).
So this kind of annoyance by stupid males is Shadow speech of collectively created hell.
As usual there is fear to take (individual) responsibility for this and You project it on that bringer of bad tidings(that macho type thing) who only functions as a tool of the collective Shadow.

>Someimes there are some evil-seeming people who want to 'make a deal'. They want me to feel its all hopeless and
>that its pointless for me to fight them because I am too weak and useless. If I give in, I always end up in big
>trouble (I get sedated or locked up somewhere) and they laugh and leer at me and say that I will never see DB
>again...

That's also part of the collective hell, could be inspiration for a thriller scene, with all the psycho-stuff and intimidation, include laughing and leering; elements of Marquis de Sade i would guess, or that Gwendoline story by John Willie.
Again, a position of power would take responsibility and admit firstly, that we attracted this; and that it's again a projection; of course again i have to share that collective responsibility with You, isn't this better?

Stina Nordenstam wrote a text:

       And I try to get up and I try to move but
       this thing won't let me
       It's heavy as a man's body on you
       and it's this close to get me

these things are not a matter of personal strength alone; We have created a system in favor of psychopaths, be they ghosts, animals, men, warfare kids, killer bees, HIV virus stems etc. To clear this we need a higher level of common sense, which seems also provided by Goddess, within FST, what a grace !

juergen.

: Hi, thanks for your reply!

: I am familiar with the Shadow from Jung also, before this. I am a little confused when Mystress mentions a male Shadow in her lesson, I always thought the Shadow was 'supposed' to be the same sex as you. Perhaps it's more complex.

: I am not sure I have ONE shadow, or form of such. In dreams, I am often confronted by a group of people  with a female leader who is a bit like a typical school bully with minions (who don't really do much, but seem to be their to make 'them' look bigger).

: There seem to be other female fragments that are not strictly oppositional but somehow representing other disowned parts of self.

: One, very wispy and almost transparent character had gotten 'married' to my DB in my dream. (this was a ehile ago.) DB seeemd shocked to see me, she didn't seem to know anything. It wasn't that there had been a mistake and he had married the wrong person... but it appeared to be a temporary situation. I also got the feeling that it was because it was the only part of me that had yet been available to him. He seemed to be trying to figure out what to do, inevitably we would have to be together at some point... In the dream though, my biggest concern was that I didn't want to hurt that girl... she seemed so lonely and helpless. He seemd to know this, but still wanting to reach me somehow. I have later figured out that the situation seems to be that she is some kind of disowned fragment from my teens and he is taking care of her for now.

: In another dream I think I WAS her, and I couldn't reach DB because I had made myself invisible and I was too shy. I was a girl in my teens and had to watch him ask some woman who looked like the normal nowadays me to dance... while I was invisible and couldn't do anything. I didn't realize I had been making myself invisible until I woke up.

: So I'm sure that wasn't a Shadow.

: The most Shadow-like characters in my dreams seem to be the annoying group leader bully character and some dark male characters. Or monsters.

: DB comes as light haired guy, white horse or mythical animal or point of light (very clear and undescribable energy - and these are sometimes out of reach or something tries to separate us), dark haired guy, (similar energy but with something more... something bad happened in the past but is being corrected, not sure what it is offhand).

: Then there is one guy who just HATES me (and all women, for that matter). I am a worthless piece of shit who shouldn't dare get in his way. Perhaps he's a masculine piece of me that hates being trapped in a female body, and wishes that 'we' had been born a man, so this could have been 'his' life, and his body. He seems to feel that I am absolutely incompetent at life and I should kill myself or something.

: Someimes there are some evil-seeming people who want to 'make a deal'. They want me to feel its all hopeless and that its pointless for me to fight them because I am too weak and useless. If I give in, I always end up in big trouble (I get sedated or locked up somewhere) and they laugh and leer at me and say that I will never see DB again...

: Don't know if they have anything to do with the Shadow.

: But I always dream that I am all sorts of people, both sexes. Sometimes I meet the characters, sometimes I am or become those characters... sometimes when I wake up, I am completely exhausted because of intense, epic dreams.

:
: : Heehee, no i don't think so!
: : There is only the one and only Shadow, but there may be some whim to trading it to various aspects of Self.

: : If You wait only a few lessons You'll probably find this answered timely.

: : There has already been a mention of the Shadow in lessons before the mirror game, but more in a greater picture. I then tried to understand the Shadow, though i seemingly was not supposed to get it then, or maybe some students get it by intuition even then. No need to haste and worry i think...

: : juergen.

Hmmm... well they say the map is not the territory. There are different models, but no model can show the whole picture. ;)

I tend to think that these energies are much more fluid and that the DB would have the power to enter fully or partially into any given form. I would be surprised if the DB was limited to a particular form. It's the energy and experience of it that matters.

In more Jungian terms... It might be a mediator to the Self (even though Mystress would say that your Higher Self would usually appear as a same-sex version of yourself - the terms may not fully overlap though - according to Jung, the Self can appear as more abstract objects in dreams, a crystal, an animal, a symbol).

So I see my DB as a mediator to the Self, in masculine form (masculine because these are the aspects of my soul that I am least able to express fully through my one-sexed physical body and thus my role in the world, so these are then energies or aspects of myself that I would need to connect with in order to be 'whole' - the 'Self' (which is always whole) then would be beyond sex/gender and might not be exactly the same thing as 'Higher Self'). There are many and varying definitions of 'Self' 'Ego' 'Higher Self' 'Soul' 'Oversoul' 'Spirit' etc etc etc and they don't exactly all agree. It's probably somewhat difficult to define.

But if I continue with that previous idea... the form of the mediator would be a container of sorts, to contain some degree of energy or Love from the Self, to attract me towards it. Communicating through a form, which symbolizes masculine aspects that completetes me.

But sometimes there will be a mix, and I will be presented with masculine aspects that have not been integrated or what you want to call it. I guess you could call that a 'secretary'. I see it more as me being shown what I need to work with to reach integration. Sometimes I will meet a male character that seems to be completely disconnected from the 'Self' energies, (those ones are very difficult to work with) often I will meet a character that is showing me one particular aspect I need to look at, but otherwise it seems to be connected (easier to work with and fun enough to meet). Sometimes more rarely I will meet or merge with a completely clear male energy that is just pure bliss. Often it seems to be more difficult to retain as a memory though. More often, I will have a dream where I am just being separated from that merge, something comes between us.

In one dream I was becoming aware of hugging this star of light, which probably was masculine, but not in male form as such. Something dark forces me away from 'him' and down a corridor (Could it be a birth memory? It seems slightly different than that though). The darkness fills the corridor and I can't get back to 'him'. The darkness is laughing triumphantly at me and finally forces me into a dimly lit room to the side of the corridor. I say ' but at least the bathroom is still there' (to the side of 'my' room). But then the darkness laughs at me and he fills the bathroom with darkness too, so I can't go in there. I run outside instead. Outside is desert. A woman is talking to 3 soldiers, trying to persuade them not to destroy something or not to take us away, I don't remember now. I try to help. Then animals crawl out from under a stone, beacuse spring was (too?) early this year, which could be good or bad apparently.

In some ways it's like a continuum. I am obviusly more confortable 'interacting' with something resembling a person, so that's what I get most of the time. Sometimes there's just this cute guy who I don't really dare walk up to or he just walked down the street 5 minutes ago and I'm trying to find him or something like that. Or we are on bikes next to each other and we are going to talk to each other soon, but not just yet. ;)

But that's all in dreams. While awake, it's more like I can connect with the energy or 'him' and it feels like someone is there and holding me and running energy through my body. It's funny because he can 'smile' and its an energy smile, not a face smiling. But it's cuter than any face I've seen. ;)

***

I don't think the website said that the DB is always imprisoned... it said that this particular man had imprisoned his DB. He had issues with women and was afraid of his female self, which he felt an urge to control and supress.

This is probably more common with men, since men are often made to feel ashamed of anything feminine within themselves in our culture.

---------------------

: Thank you! This is interesting stuff. I am sure there are differences. For instance, I have no negative fantasies concerning women (or anything else). This idea that the beloved is imprisoned reminds me of a conversation with my DB at a session with Mystress. We met the Japanese girl in a city at the bottom of the sea, far away down under the water. She had just told us that the five hundred meters dragon was her pet. Then we asked her (Mystress advised me to ask her) why she needed the dragon and what use she had of him. She answered that sometimes it sometimes got lonely %ldquodown here%rdquo. (She did not seem to be trapped in a dungeon though, flying on a huge dragon through the space as she was.) Mystress concluded that the Japanese girl was not really my DB and that DB had sent her %ldquosecretary%rdquo instead of coming her self. We asked her why she had done that, but I think we got no real answer. At that same session something scary was at one point just about to materialize in a corner of the room, but it never did.

:
: : I wonder if there are differences in how you encounter your DB depending on whether you are male or female?

: : This was a rather interesting story from a man: Inner Beloved

: : I'm sure there are  alot of indiviual differences though.

Yes, sure the models differ, and then they don%rsquot even speak the same language. ;) As I se it, they are basically symbols or metaphors more or less useful to different individuals. Still the rigid application of the models seems to be very important to many therapists and teachers. I have often tried to get help from practitioners from different schools. Then they most often tried to form me after their model instead of modifying the models to be useful for me. Some (most?) of them even seem to have a kind of specialty. They sometimes seem to treat everybody for the same problem, regardless of whether they have it or not! ;) So they misdiagnosed my symptoms of upcoming karma %ndash the healing process as such %ndash as a disease they were to cure and treated me for a condition I did not have. And when I protested %ndash because I felt my whole body protesting (%ldquoNo! No! This is way out of line! Get out of this as soon as possible!%rdquo) %ndash they accused me of %ldquoresistance%rdquo or %ldquolack of trust%rdquo or %ldquonot being ready to let go%rdquo or something similar. Lately I have arrived at the same conclusion as I believe you have, when reading your posts. I need to find my own way. And I have also got in touch with some very valuable helpers. Today I feel very good most of the time, in spite of the fact that I am practicing a lot of kegels and am undergoing a rather intense cleansing process.

What I have found out is that it is not as simple as if I had been neglecting my feminine side and nurtured my masculine side. Basically I have promoted both sides, but I have also suppressed parts of them both. And from what you have written of your dreams, I conclude you have too. As I am an intellectual at work and my brain is trained for logical analyses, therapists often diagnose me as %ldquoa typical left brain person%rdquo (in spite of the fact that I am also a lot of other things, such as rather emotional and sensible). But this is not entirely true. On the contrary they get astonished when the results of their own tests show an uncommonly high degree of balance between what they diagnose as the two parts of the brain. They obviously expected something very different. And when my brain activity was recently measured, the right half of my brain was considerably more active then the left. So, I think that what I have suppressed are both male and female elements.

I agree that the difference between the Higher Self, DB, guardian angels etc should not be overly stressed. Basically, it%rsquos the same energy and it%rsquos different symbols and representations which are useful for different persons and in different settings. As I said, I normally don%rsquot have visions of persons. But I have animals. I have at least four of them; the huge fire-vomiting dragon, a huge lion, a big bear and an eagle. The representations differ, and I believe that some of them might be more parts of suppressed materials in my mind and less parts of divine energy than others, I don%rsquot know for sure. These might be what you call %ldquomasculine [or in some cases feminine] aspects that have not been integrated%rdquo. If these animal representations are %ldquowhat I need to work with to reach integration%rdquo it%rsquos not easy to tell what I should do. ;) Be brave as the lion, sharp-eyed and stern as the eagle, strong as the bear? And if so, what quality does the dragon represent?

I agree that at least the main characters should, as you say, be free of limitations. So, why would my DB feel %ldquolonely down here%rdquo if she is not limited to a particular form? Or why would she send a suppressed part (a %ldquosecretary%rdquo) instead? Do the Japanese girl and her dragon pet represent something I need to work with to really get in touch with DB? Is she my suppressed female side, which is not imprisoned but still trapped and not let out to play? And is the dragon the kundalini energy that will set her free? Or was DB just kidding? ;)

DB is a terrific mediator as she is a human representation, easier to relate to, and to get attracted by, than an impersonal %ldquoOversoul%rdquo or even a personal god or goddess. Still, she is difficult to catch. ;) When DB is perceived as a container of energy, it might be somewhat deceiving, a little bit like the Trojan horse, to the ego.

I don%rsquot often have visions with persons involved. But when I dream about a woman we are most often together, cooperating, helping each other, hugging, kissing and making love. There is most often no separation. But nowadays I for some reason seldom remember my dreams. When I am awake, I more often have body sensations and symbolic visions. I recognize the sensations that feel like someone is there and holding me and running energy through my body very well. It is as if DB gives me healing from many places on the front of my body. After I had the vision of being tied to Freyja (an earlier post), I can most of the time feel the energy sensation of her body towards mine. To me the body sensations are probably the main experiences from the kundalini process. The phase of my healing process I am in today started about three years ago with my heart opening up like a volcano of joy and bliss in the midst of the deepest misery. Then it started to burn the shadows away and created a growing open space around my heart. Today, it has been there almost continuously for months and is very seldom overcome with negativity.

I can%rsquot say how you should interpret your dream about the star of light and the dark corridor. Maybe you can understand it better if you relate to your life situations when you had it? Or if you look for key words on sites or in books regarding interpretation of dreams? It reminds me slightly of a vision I had when participating in a ritual for bringing on a movement towards my true goal in life (which I am still searching for). During the ritual I was directed down in dark corridors, where I met people dressed in black suits. I was somewhat disappointed, as that did not seem as a direction in which I wanted to go. But my yogic therapist later investigated this corridor and detected an %ldquoinner room%rdquo, which I have still not found myself. I did not understand much of that dream, but as my therapist said; you don%rsquot have to understand everything, the most important thing is to be there and experience it.

: Hmmm... well they say the map is not the territory. There are different models, but no model can show the whole picture. ;)

: I tend to think that these energies are much more fluid and that the DB would have the power to enter fully or partially into any given form. I would be surprised if the DB was limited to a particular form. It's the energy and experience of it that matters.

: In more Jungian terms... It might be a mediator to the Self (even though Mystress would say that your Higher Self would usually appear as a same-sex version of yourself - the terms may not fully overlap though - according to Jung, the Self can appear as more abstract objects in dreams, a crystal, an animal, a symbol).

: So I see my DB as a mediator to the Self, in masculine form (masculine because these are the aspects of my soul that I am least able to express fully through my one-sexed physical body and thus my role in the world, so these are then energies or aspects of myself that I would need to connect with in order to be 'whole' - the 'Self' (which is always whole) then would be beyond sex/gender and might not be exactly the same thing as 'Higher Self'). There are many and varying definitions of 'Self' 'Ego' 'Higher Self' 'Soul' 'Oversoul' 'Spirit' etc etc etc and they don't exactly all agree. It's probably somewhat difficult to define.

: But if I continue with that previous idea... the form of the mediator would be a container of sorts, to contain some degree of energy or Love from the Self, to attract me towards it. Communicating through a form, which symbolizes masculine aspects that completetes me.

: But sometimes there will be a mix, and I will be presented with masculine aspects that have not been integrated or what you want to call it. I guess you could call that a 'secretary'. I see it more as me being shown what I need to work with to reach integration. Sometimes I will meet a male character that seems to be completely disconnected from the 'Self' energies, (those ones are very difficult to work with) often I will meet a character that is showing me one particular aspect I need to look at, but otherwise it seems to be connected (easier to work with and fun enough to meet). Sometimes more rarely I will meet or merge with a completely clear male energy that is just pure bliss. Often it seems to be more difficult to retain as a memory though. More often, I will have a dream where I am just being separated from that merge, something comes between us.

: In one dream I was becoming aware of hugging this star of light, which probably was masculine, but not in male form as such. Something dark forces me away from 'him' and down a corridor (Could it be a birth memory? It seems slightly different than that though). The darkness fills the corridor and I can't get back to 'him'. The darkness is laughing triumphantly at me and finally forces me into a dimly lit room to the side of the corridor. I say ' but at least the bathroom is still there' (to the side of 'my' room). But then the darkness laughs at me and he fills the bathroom with darkness too, so I can't go in there. I run outside instead. Outside is desert. A woman is talking to 3 soldiers, trying to persuade them not to destroy something or not to take us away, I don't remember now. I try to help. Then animals crawl out from under a stone, beacuse spring was (too?) early this year, which could be good or bad apparently.

: In some ways it's like a continuum. I am obviusly more confortable 'interacting' with something resembling a person, so that's what I get most of the time. Sometimes there's just this cute guy who I don't really dare walk up to or he just walked down the street 5 minutes ago and I'm trying to find him or something like that. Or we are on bikes next to each other and we are going to talk to each other soon, but not just yet. ;)

: But that's all in dreams. While awake, it's more like I can connect with the energy or 'him' and it feels like someone is there and holding me and running energy through my body. It's funny because he can 'smile' and its an energy smile, not a face smiling. But it's cuter than any face I've seen. ;)

: ***

: I don't think the website said that the DB is always imprisoned... it said that this particular man had imprisoned his DB. He had issues with women and was afraid of his female self, which he felt an urge to control and supress.

: This is probably more common with men, since men are often made to feel ashamed of anything feminine within themselves in our culture.

: ---------------------

: : Thank you! This is interesting stuff. I am sure there are differences. For instance, I have no negative fantasies concerning women (or anything else). This idea that the beloved is imprisoned reminds me of a conversation with my DB at a session with Mystress. We met the Japanese girl in a city at the bottom of the sea, far away down under the water. She had just told us that the five hundred meters dragon was her pet. Then we asked her (Mystress advised me to ask her) why she needed the dragon and what use she had of him. She answered that sometimes it sometimes got lonely %ldquodown here%rdquo. (She did not seem to be trapped in a dungeon though, flying on a huge dragon through the space as she was.) Mystress concluded that the Japanese girl was not really my DB and that DB had sent her %ldquosecretary%rdquo instead of coming her self. We asked her why she had done that, but I think we got no real answer. At that same session something scary was at one point just about to materialize in a corner of the room, but it never did.

: :
: : : I wonder if there are differences in how you encounter your DB depending on whether you are male or female?

: : : This was a rather interesting story from a man: Inner Beloved

: : : I'm sure there are  alot of indiviual differences though.

we must discern the Shadow Self and Shadow Stuff, which would to be released.
The Shadow Self is Someone who presents Shadow Stuff in a way like the Health Army presents their collecting box under One's nose: not nice, but obvious.
Obvious is the presentation but not its meaning;
so there are teachings for this(that FST-lesson for example).
And obvious is not the presenter, so near is that collecting box before the nose, that you can't see the soldier; certain pangs of conscience are the closest hint i can get, hinting at the Shadow Self.
There is certainly Shadow Stuff from the Divine Beloved: a tendency to heartily punches in a woman or girl, a desire for wearing earrings in a male; stuff likely to be disowned, but definitely in the range of these persons, providing potential to them if aversions are surrendered and integration is sought for.
Maybe this could be meant by "the DB's Shadow", but this use is confusing, i think.

: This sounds fascinating. To me DB is elusive, difficult to catch (as most women I suppose), but definitely not mean, not in any way. On the contrary, she is joyful and mysterious. If she has a shadow, I have not seen it (except maybe in real life ;) ). But I have some kind of problem with the shadow too. As most upcoming insights are positive, it seems as if I blocked it out. Mystress says I don%rsquot want to se myself reflected. But I am starting to believe that it has just been so acquainted to me for so many years that I don%rsquot recognize it for what it is. I seldom remember my dreams, but when I do they are not that complicated. Most often they are some kind of adventure stories, where the main character is a very attractive girl who is somehow cooperating with me to reach some kind of goal. She looks different every time. Still, I believe she represents DB. Other characters are most often less important. In the same way, when I do the practice recommended in the DB-lesson, what I get is a lot of images of different beautiful women passing by at high speed. Sometimes I can see DB in a distance, as a dark haired Japanese girl riding on a 500 meter fire vomiting dragon, smiling and waving her arm at me. And sometimes, when I close my eyes, I can feel her touch and the healing energy movements it generates. However, it never got as real as Mystress says it can be.

: : (quote)Most commonly I saw the shadow side of my Divine Beloved... but there was a period when a Grey Alien was the most persistent and steady face. I showed it to many people, and could always tell when they saw it by the look on their face because it was very disturbing to see.

: : The DB has a Shadow too? I suspected this. Explains some things...

: Hmm, a thought. If Mystress could act out her sadistic shadow male in the physical by being a dominatrix.

: I would have to act mine out by killing myself... this doesn't seem very workable to me.

i'm neither an expert nor a fan of the Jungian system, but this talk of 'acting out' sounds like from that direction, but could also be Freud or from another; whatsoever, too modern for me.

Mystress is obviously releasing Her principal original aversion against being sadistic. :)

You seem to share this same aversion originally with Her, when You disown that bully girl, and should release this aversion, too, integrate Your sadism and bullyness, like Mystress does.
(meanwhile i'm exercising on some magick to become invisible, smiles)

: Thanks for that rich dream stuff of Yours, i don't dream so much, so i'm like a Vampire about other peoples dreams, sooo instructive !

Aghh, it's so easy to miss
posts here! And I'm still confused about how to get a post to appear lower down in the tree structure. I have now taken this to the almighty GoLive <--------TM web editor so I can color my text, see if it works. Well, it seems I still have to rewrite it here because the code has paragraphs and stuff. If I forget just one closing font tag, the whole rest of the text gets colored.

Glad you don't mind reading other people's dream stuff. I find dreams and dialogue with dream figures are my main place for finding guidance, probably some kind of combination of both having immense imagination and tending to get in the way of myself when I'm awake. ;)

: So when you became invisible and shy in that dream, that wasn't probably agreeable. Probably another hint at disowning part of your Self, thus clearly Shadow-stuff content.

Yes, I feel it was definitely saying that if he can't see me, how can he ask me to dance? I wanted to be invisible, because I was worried that the other woman (older, more experienced) would make fun of me and completely humiliate me if I appeared to be interested. It didn't feel safe I guess. I was very young in the dream. But it was almost like 'switching roles' with myself in the earlier dream. This was like a year ago though.

: Such a wall is of course life-threatening in its consequences, and the Shadow is that Divine part, gracious enough to give us some hints, so we can lower that wall and get more and more goodies from the Unconscious into the conscious mind to work potentially richer.

So if the Shadow didn't appear in the dreams... we would never see and be warned about what is there.

: Then there are persons with a more or less mature conscience, which means that we enter a habitual dialog with conscience(or The Shadow) about all possible things, at a stage when fear of responsibility is released out of the wall, so that responsibility becomes an option;

When you are saying this.. I think I have to rent or buy Pink Floyd's 'The Wall' soon... maybe there will be something interesting there... saw it ages ago.

: That dialogue with conscience however, can also be considered a grace of the Shadow. how far this is special for Shamans i can not tell.

I don't think you have to be a Shaman to use some shamanic techniques. It just doesn't make you a Shaman. One aspect of shamanism would probably be that you can also enter into and converse with ~other~ people's subconscius worlds and characters, not that I know that much about it.

: I don't think i am a Shaman, but this isn't strange to me either; sometimes my spiteful Ex is turning up as a spokesperson, sometimes other people, according to the situation. Not a special Teacher like Mystress' Armand, but teaching it is, nonetheless(i think).

: A bully who feels a little fragile(see Your other dream) so She needs a bunch of minions at Her side to look bigger... i guess this makes sense, given that You didn't think You were a bully.

Well, I don't bully other people much... whom I have been bullying is myself. This explains a lot to me when I'm supposed to 'be doing' everything I project on others somehow. It's just that some of it you are doing to yourself and not to other people. The person you are most cruel to, is often yourself.

: That's interesting, cause it confirms what i have guessed about male Divine Beloveds: That they really desire to empower 'Their' Woman's Self; interesting that he cared about that abandoned fragmant of Your past and as it seems, even achieve to reconcile You with that Shadowy aspect. It's moving.

Yes, it is. :) And why would I want him to leave any part of me abandoned? What he was howing is exactly how it needs to happen.

: That's a tricky one. Left me no chance than to expand a little :)
: A masculine piece of You would relate to the Divine Beloved, who is obviously quite fond of You.

: Indeed there are such guys, who only seek to belittle You as a woman, but nonetheless it looks like a projection of Your Self-discontent on that guy in Your dream. The Shadow reflecting it back at you;
: of course there is sort of a male macho hell 'til this day in many or most spots on earth with bitching, intimidating males, but that sillyness can be viewed as an action of a *collective Shadow*, revealing again unwelcome, valuable truth.
: The normal individual Shadow reveals his message from within, by unwelcome ungrounding, bugging sensations etc, but the collective Shadow causes annoyance in public thru offense etc.
: A harsh demonstration that you have created hell(You created it, since it is a collective hell; participating in a crime is organized crime and of heavier seriousness than single deed).
: So this kind of annoyance by stupid males is Shadow speech of collectively created hell.
: As usual there is fear to take (individual) responsibility for this and You project it on that bringer of bad tidings(that macho type thing) who only functions as a tool of the collective Shadow.

I guess no one can escape having to deal with that collective material. The thing for me, is that I don't have to actually encounter that 'such guys' person... I only have to encounter the female shadow projections of the men in my life. I absorb stuff like that like a sponge. Then I have to deal with it. Good luck I am finally becoming aware of it.

Perhaps this figure was created by the fact that I  entertained that common, deluded hope that if I could just become perfect, the hate would disappear. But that's a game you can never win, it's just a trap. His idea is that I become perfect and flawless in the eyes if the world, or I die. Any failure on my part is a matter of life and death. I guess it's a warped form of protection, since my survival seemed to depend on it.

: That's also part of the collective hell, could be inspiration for a thriller scene, with all the psycho-stuff and intimidation, include laughing and leering; elements of Marquis de Sade i would guess, or that Gwendoline story by John Willie.
: Again, a position of power would take responsibility and admit firstly, that we attracted this; and that it's again a projection; of course again i have to share that collective responsibility with You, isn't this better?

Hmm... I am kinda hoping that individual responsibility would suffice.

: these things are not a matter of personal strength alone; We have created a system in favor of psychopaths, be they ghosts, animals, men, warfare kids, killer bees, HIV virus stems etc. To clear this we need a higher level of common sense, which seems also provided by Goddess, within FST, what a grace !

If I have to rely on the rest of the world to change anything... that just seems hopeless to me. ;) Some occult writer said something like (don't remember who) that when a person stops being influenced by the outside, is when they can start to have an influence. I guess that would be a matter of reversing the flow. But the whole thing may be a paradox, that Hawaiian guy that was discussed here earlier certainly seemed to be able to affect things all on his own - but there seemed to be some concerns on doing it in the right way to not attract Karma. Perhaps it's somewhat advanced. I feel I am still taking baby steps.

Ylva

%rdquoAnd obvious is not the presenter, so near is that collecting box before the nose, that you can't see the soldier; certain pangs of conscience are the closest hint i can get, hinting at the Shadow Self.%rdquo

If this is the Shadow Self, I am indeed very acquainted to it since I was a young boy. I was a very quiet boy and was seldom up to any mischief. Still I was often overwhelmed by strong feelings of guilt, such as when I tried to make love to a neighbor%rsquos girl. In that case I suppose I had some reason to feel guilty. But in most cases, it was only about very insignificant things (as that was almost all I did). They were probably sometimes only symbolic, a lesson to learn, such as when I took some totally unimportant waste from one persons land and moved it to another person%rsquos property. I was awake that night worrying about it for hours and wanted to go back in the middle of the night to put it back. The lesson was that I had no right to remove things from others property or to decide for others what was important and what was only waste. I have had these outbursts of guilt all my life, but as I grew older they got less frequent and less overwhelming. I suppose I learned to analyze the situation and decide for myself what the lesson was and whether I was rightfully to blame or not. These attacks have also been connected to what I have later recognized as my kundalini experience. In periods where I had a lot of glimpses of higher states of consciousness, they got stronger and more frequent. As a boy I thought I just had a week nervous system. Still, that does not seem to have been the case.

You did very fine with Go live editor! That blue hue makes the whole thing much easier to read. Is it a text based editor, i guess? I'll also give it a color try; maybe exchange Your blue value with the red value, let's see, what symmetrie will do.
That Shadow theme is really a complex thing, sometimes i get confused and forget what it is all about( create more Karma and increase the veil of forgetfulness ??? ) All in all however discussing it here is fairly deepening.
Hope this color experiment ain't gonna mess, but here it is...

: Yes, I feel it was definitely saying that if he can't see me, how can he ask me to dance? I wanted to be invisible, because I was worried that the other woman (older, more experienced) would make fun of me and completely humiliate me if I appeared to be interested. It didn't feel safe I guess. I was very young in the dream. But it was almost like 'switching roles' with myself in the earlier dream. This was like a year ago though.

i think it's like with black magick; there is a basic fear of growth, so we consider elements of power(/elements of Self) as black magick, abandon our own position of interest.
And often or most time someone superior appears, a parent, a friend, a teacher, something like this and and we assume their contradicting position. Its not so much what we really do(under external force) but what we internalize.
As for that original element of our own power however, we take a reluctant, averse, disowning position.
And together this constitutes a problem.
There is also sort of conscience associated to this, but not one in our interest.

As a last resort the devil appears and guides us back to normalcy.
He does this by exactly or quite exactly doing the same as we did in the procecess so far, holding us simply the mirror before the nose, over and over again 'til we get nauseous and vomit it out to be restored.
There are two ways of projections, a carrot-type and a stick-type projection:

By assuming our superior's position we behave like a carrot donor: mild, yielding, friendly, thus THE DEVIL shows a projection from the superior on ourselves which is truly an introversion. This comes as repeated thoughts of what 'is right', 'who we think we are', or kind of lulling impressions and desire for these impressions: internalizing tv-shows, buying-music, "lovely" animations, "spiritual" music, addictive fragrances, sugar, "chocolate and strawberries" etc.: ideal world, similar to the relation with The Divine Beloved, but external: from outside of us. Becoming strikingly receptive for exterior influences: lifestyles, opinions.

By rejecting our own position of power we behave like a stick poker, thus THE DEVIL initiates  projections from us on anyone else who is maybe a little bit worse.
For example a Pro Domme lets Her clients normally alive, so they can come and pay Her again and again, but the pirates torture their "clients" to death and they have to dispose of their corpses too, so this is worse. If a Domme's Shadow makes such a projection She will eventually feel easier with Herself. This is conscience from our own position: true conscience, the conscience from the DEVIL, King of Hell(The Shadow, The Portal Guardian).

So the Devil in both cases is reflecting our own carrot or stick game respectively, healing by doing the same thing, which is also called Homeopathy.
--------
So, the Ylva is in fear of the black magick of the Bully(an element of Herself), which could be integrated to make Her grow; at the same time there are a lot of external beings, usually experienced as superiors, whose position is that Ylva is a whispy not so worthy brat, certainly no bully, and should not grow out of control, so logically Ylva assumes that position. As a great Homeopath, The Devil sends Her the same thoughts to Her Dreams(heal like with like), so She wonders what this is all about, until She hears of the Devil, King of Hell. This is for the carrot side: who you think you are; the Stick side is about who you think you are not. Your rejection, 'black magick', sarcasm: the appearance of the bully in Your Dreams; maybe the bully is a bit overdrawn so You can have an easier option to integrate the Intimidator into real live; much fun !

The older woman is also a projection of Your intimidator-power-element onto "someone else". And She's You, but the younger Woman is Your illusion of You.

Hope this is a scheme that works!

: So if the Shadow didn't appear in the dreams... we would never see and be warned about what is there.

Yes, but the Devil is also diabolic and wants to get attention and be interpreted; for a while he misleads people, causing them some pain, harm, makes us judgemental against our projection targets and void of power at the same time...(In Homeopathy this is called first aggravation)
Are we now Satanists? LOL !

: When you are saying this.. I think I have to rent or buy Pink Floyd's 'The Wall' soon... maybe there will be something interesting there... saw it ages ago.

Thanks, will see if i find it at youtube..
In younger times i often missed the texts, now finding out how important they are, even if the music is not always exactly rightly hitting in the center of the nail('though Pink Floyd do fairly well).
Another guide for me to the Wall has become the medieval city walls: understanding that they are not just a wall but very complex systems of sticks and carrots: welcoming comittees and cruise missiles; i guess for each power element of oneself there is a welcoming committee(internal submission to a "superior") and a little canon in that wall :)

: Well, I don't bully other people much... whom I have been bullying is myself. This explains a lot to me when I'm supposed to 'be doing' everything I project on others somehow. It's just that some of it you are doing to yourself and not to other people. The person you are most cruel to, is often yourself.

Yep! But then it may be time for doing a little black magick !

: I guess no one can escape having to deal with that collective material. The thing for me, is that I don't have to actually encounter that 'such guys' person... I only have to encounter the female shadow projections of the men in my life. I absorb stuff like that like a sponge. Then I have to deal with it. Good luck I am finally becoming aware of it.

: Perhaps this figure was created by the fact that I  entertained that common, deluded hope that if I could just become perfect, the hate would disappear. But that's a game you can never win, it's just a trap. His idea is that I become perfect and flawless in the eyes if the world, or I die. Any failure on my part is a matter of life and death. I guess it's a warped form of protection, since my survival seemed to depend on it.

For a male like me this is unbelievable! But i remember a neighbour a medical student, who told somewhat behind hand, that it was not rare that the most attractive women showed up in hospital with suicide; when about 13, the mother of a schoolfriend was buried, one who touched me in a second when i was first at their home. So i believe You, talking about matters of life and death; good that You are safe! Shure the safety net will unfold bigger :)

: If I have to rely on the rest of the world to change anything... that just seems hopeless to me. ;) Some occult writer said something like (don't remember who) that when a person stops being influenced by the outside, is when they can start to have an influence. I guess that would be a matter of reversing the flow. But the whole thing may be a paradox, that Hawaiian guy that was discussed here earlier certainly seemed to be able to affect things all on his own - but there seemed to be some concerns on doing it in the right way to not attract Karma. Perhaps it's somewhat advanced. I feel I am still taking baby steps.

baby steps, lovely! exactly what i'm trying, too! Not always a paragon, but hopefully not too much away from the track. I'm quite confident that we can become vessels of power on this path and this way get some influence on co-creation; and the Wall is certainly kind of a key to it.

kind smiles,

juergen.

: : Thanks for that rich dream stuff of Yours, i don't dream so much, so i'm like a Vampire about other peoples dreams, sooo instructive !

: Aghh, it's so easy to miss
: posts here! And I'm still confused about how to get a post to appear lower down in the tree structure. I have now taken this to the almighty GoLive <--------TM web editor so I can color my text, see if it works. Well, it seems I still have to rewrite it here because the code has paragraphs and stuff. If I forget just one closing font tag, the whole rest of the text gets colored.

: Glad you don't mind reading other people's dream stuff. I find dreams and dialogue with dream figures are my main place for finding guidance, probably some kind of combination of both having immense imagination and tending to get in the way of myself when I'm awake. ;)

:
: : So when you became invisible and shy in that dream, that wasn't probably agreeable. Probably another hint at disowning part of your Self, thus clearly Shadow-stuff content.

: Yes, I feel it was definitely saying that if he can't see me, how can he ask me to dance? I wanted to be invisible, because I was worried that the other woman (older, more experienced) would make fun of me and completely humiliate me if I appeared to be interested. It didn't feel safe I guess. I was very young in the dream. But it was almost like 'switching roles' with myself in the earlier dream. This was like a year ago though.

:
: : Such a wall is of course life-threatening in its consequences, and the Shadow is that Divine part, gracious enough to give us some hints, so we can lower that wall and get more and more goodies from the Unconscious into the conscious mind to work potentially richer.

: So if the Shadow didn't appear in the dreams... we would never see and be warned about what is there.

:
: : Then there are persons with a more or less mature conscience, which means that we enter a habitual dialog with conscience(or The Shadow) about all possible things, at a stage when fear of responsibility is released out of the wall, so that responsibility becomes an option;

: When you are saying this.. I think I have to rent or buy Pink Floyd's 'The Wall' soon... maybe there will be something interesting there... saw it ages ago.

:
: : That dialogue with conscience however, can also be considered a grace of the Shadow. how far this is special for Shamans i can not tell.

: I don't think you have to be a Shaman to use some shamanic techniques. It just doesn't make you a Shaman. One aspect of shamanism would probably be that you can also enter into and converse with ~other~ people's subconscius worlds and characters, not that I know that much about it.
:  
: : I don't think i am a Shaman, but this isn't strange to me either; sometimes my spiteful Ex is turning up as a spokesperson, sometimes other people, according to the situation. Not a special Teacher like Mystress' Armand, but teaching it is, nonetheless(i think).

:
: : A bully who feels a little fragile(see Your other dream) so She needs a bunch of minions at Her side to look bigger... i guess this makes sense, given that You didn't think You were a bully.

: Well, I don't bully other people much... whom I have been bullying is myself. This explains a lot to me when I'm supposed to 'be doing' everything I project on others somehow. It's just that some of it you are doing to yourself and not to other people. The person you are most cruel to, is often yourself.

:
: : That's interesting, cause it confirms what i have guessed about male Divine Beloveds: That they really desire to empower 'Their' Woman's Self; interesting that he cared about that abandoned fragmant of Your past and as it seems, even achieve to reconcile You with that Shadowy aspect. It's moving.

: Yes, it is. :) And why would I want him to leave any part of me abandoned? What he was howing is exactly how it needs to happen.

: : That's a tricky one. Left me no chance than to expand a little :)
: : A masculine piece of You would relate to the Divine Beloved, who is obviously quite fond of You.

: : Indeed there are such guys, who only seek to belittle You as a woman, but nonetheless it looks like a projection of Your Self-discontent on that guy in Your dream. The Shadow reflecting it back at you;
: : of course there is sort of a male macho hell 'til this day in many or most spots on earth with bitching, intimidating males, but that sillyness can be viewed as an action of a *collective Shadow*, revealing again unwelcome, valuable truth.
: : The normal individual Shadow reveals his message from within, by unwelcome ungrounding, bugging sensations etc, but the collective Shadow causes annoyance in public thru offense etc.
: : A harsh demonstration that you have created hell(You created it, since it is a collective hell; participating in a crime is organized crime and of heavier seriousness than single deed).
: : So this kind of annoyance by stupid males is Shadow speech of collectively created hell.
: : As usual there is fear to take (individual) responsibility for this and You project it on that bringer of bad tidings(that macho type thing) who only functions as a tool of the collective Shadow.

: I guess no one can escape having to deal with that collective material. The thing for me, is that I don't have to actually encounter that 'such guys' person... I only have to encounter the female shadow projections of the men in my life. I absorb stuff like that like a sponge. Then I have to deal with it. Good luck I am finally becoming aware of it.

: Perhaps this figure was created by the fact that I  entertained that common, deluded hope that if I could just become perfect, the hate would disappear. But that's a game you can never win, it's just a trap. His idea is that I become perfect and flawless in the eyes if the world, or I die. Any failure on my part is a matter of life and death. I guess it's a warped form of protection, since my survival seemed to depend on it.

:
: : That's also part of the collective hell, could be inspiration for a thriller scene, with all the psycho-stuff and intimidation, include laughing and leering; elements of Marquis de Sade i would guess, or that Gwendoline story by John Willie.
: : Again, a position of power would take responsibility and admit firstly, that we attracted this; and that it's again a projection; of course again i have to share that collective responsibility with You, isn't this better?

: Hmm... I am kinda hoping that individual responsibility would suffice.

:
: : these things are not a matter of personal strength alone; We have created a system in favor of psychopaths, be they ghosts, animals, men, warfare kids, killer bees, HIV virus stems etc. To clear this we need a higher level of common sense, which seems also provided by Goddess, within FST, what a grace !

:
: If I have to rely on the rest of the world to change anything... that just seems hopeless to me. ;) Some occult writer said something like (don't remember who) that when a person stops being influenced by the outside, is when they can start to have an influence. I guess that would be a matter of reversing the flow. But the whole thing may be a paradox, that Hawaiian guy that was discussed here earlier certainly seemed to be able to affect things all on his own - but there seemed to be some concerns on doing it in the right way to not attract Karma. Perhaps it's somewhat advanced. I feel I am still taking baby steps.

: Ylva

Guilt feelings are negative, and cannot be Devil's  work since he is a guide, a friend. I would call it "Pseudo conscience". But the Devil or Portal Guardian, helps us by reflecting this nonsense back 'till we finally see the truth: that it is really nonsense(that guilt pangs stuff).
So You say that guilt outbursts grew lesser as you  grew older; indicating that the healing principle works. I have more details in the reply to Ylva, yeah She's a lady... :)
Hey once more: The PG seems have done His work, but as you analyzed it, you must have messed it up again: Your beliefs of 'being rightfully to blame' etc: seems you blamed yourself against your own very interests! Then of corse Karma is built, to show up on your kundalini work.
Even if under outward world conditions it may seem opportune to keep to the the laws, there is no necessary need to feel guilty after being 'disobedient', isn't it?

: %rdquoAnd obvious is not the presenter, so near is that collecting box before the nose, that you can't see the soldier; certain pangs of conscience are the closest hint i can get, hinting at the Shadow Self.%rdquo

: If this is the Shadow Self, I am indeed very acquainted to it since I was a young boy. I was a very quiet boy and was seldom up to any mischief. Still I was often overwhelmed by strong feelings of guilt, such as when I tried to make love to a neighbor%rsquos girl. In that case I suppose I had some reason to feel guilty. But in most cases, it was only about very insignificant things (as that was almost all I did). They were probably sometimes only symbolic, a lesson to learn, such as when I took some totally unimportant waste from one persons land and moved it to another person%rsquos property. I was awake that night worrying about it for hours and wanted to go back in the middle of the night to put it back. The lesson was that I had no right to remove things from others property or to decide for others what was important and what was only waste. I have had these outbursts of guilt all my life, but as I grew older they got less frequent and less overwhelming. I suppose I learned to analyze the situation and decide for myself what the lesson was and whether I was rightfully to blame or not. These attacks have also been connected to what I have later recognized as my kundalini experience. In periods where I had a lot of glimpses of higher states of consciousness, they got stronger and more frequent. As a boy I thought I just had a week nervous system. Still, that does not seem to have been the case.

Some experiences:
Once on grounding, when sparking the center of the earth, i had a vision of a 1:1 contact with a Divine Woman in a sort of a cave; She stood before me, and had a light in Her right hand which was all light present and firstly i only knew She was there, felt Her Power, could and would not move a muscle, such solemn feelings.
Then i got to see Her face and Her gaze had all the power of the world over me; a bit later She "scanned me sexually" with Her Yoni up and down along the spine me lying or reclyning on the back, after a few more events, the confined cave was all glowing light but not very bright.

So this was quite an intimate encounter, wow!
I think the Divine Beloved of a male corresponds to the 1:1 symbol of the 2 chalices the higher poured into the lower:
very to the left!

We also know that the right brain side is the intuitive side(could be in the top of the same gemeos image of the above link).
Further it is known that 1:1 tuition is also the best (in-)tuition, first thinking of the teaching Mother and contact which is also 1:1, usually, or breast-feeding etc.
So this is taken as characteristic for the Feminine Spirit, Feminine Devine, Shakti.
The result of Divine Beloved's navigation is seen in its spontanous effect on the conscious mind.
In men, his effect has a monotonous, specialized, even monosyllable setting, according to the female 1:1 intensity.
Starting from this primary effect from the subconscious on the conscious mind and going onward however, the mind expands, systems are built: a tree structure, no more intimacy, but conscious male reality, technical atmosphere; instrumental, useful.
In Women we observe a more vivid, varied effect from the subconscious to consciousness( more talkative spontaneity; see the tree structure in the male conscious mind, above ). However from these single impacts on consciousness onward the female Higher Self(Type like the male Divine Beloved) seems to take over and again there is intimacy and intuition: classically the kindergarden nurse creates intimacy with each one of a whole bunch of kids, so they won't cry for home, or we know principally of the the famous female multitasking, which can be explained this way thru the special arrangement of spiritual Selves; so that beside a neutral merging of spirit(androgynism) there is also a disposition for difference.
Somewhere i've heard something about a 3rd section of this course, about "female Dominant Tantra", but i'm not shure if there is a possible connection of my deductions and observations with this; it would be mere coincidence, i think.

smiles

: I wonder if there are differences in how you encounter your DB depending on whether you are male or female?

: This was a rather interesting story from a man: Inner Beloved

: I'm sure there are  alot of indiviual differences though.

: --------

: : This sounds fascinating. To me DB is elusive, difficult to catch (as most women I suppose), but definitely not mean, not in any way. On the contrary, she is joyful and mysterious. If she has a shadow, I have not seen it (except maybe in real life ;) ). But I have some kind of problem with the shadow too. As most upcoming insights are positive, it seems as if I blocked it out. Mystress says I don%rsquot want to se myself reflected. But I am starting to believe that it has just been so acquainted to me for so many years that I don%rsquot recognize it for what it is. I seldom remember my dreams, but when I do they are not that complicated. Most often they are some kind of adventure stories, where the main character is a very attractive girl who is somehow cooperating with me to reach some kind of goal. She looks different every time. Still, I believe she represents DB. Other characters are most often less important. In the same way, when I do the practice recommended in the DB-lesson, what I get is a lot of images of different beautiful women passing by at high speed. Sometimes I can see DB in a distance, as a dark haired Japanese girl riding on a 500 meter fire vomiting dragon, smiling and waving her arm at me. And sometimes, when I close my eyes, I can feel her touch and the healing energy movements it generates. However, it never got as real as Mystress says it can be.

: : : (quote)Most commonly I saw the shadow side of my Divine Beloved... but there was a period when a Grey Alien was the most persistent and steady face. I showed it to many people, and could always tell when they saw it by the look on their face because it was very disturbing to see.

: : : The DB has a Shadow too? I suspected this. Explains some things...

:Juergen wrote: Thanks for that rich dream stuff of Yours, i don't dream so much, so i'm like a Vampire about other peoples dreams, sooo instructive !

Yes, it is an interesting thread. I enjoy how dream characters show aspects of ourselves.

Juergen wrote:
: Another term for Shadow is conscience, and the Shadow's acts are the voice of conscience, so in this way by The Shadow we can understand conscience(Which is a great experience for me, hooray!).

That is a very interesting insight. The shadow is about boundaries, the power chakra is about boundaries, and conscience divines what is Karma and what is Dharma.  Part of its nature is the Viel between the ego and the DB. Portal Guardian, the consciousness that guards the gates.. The angel with the flaming sword who guards Eden, none who fear may pass here. Border patrol.

  It is a reflection of your ego's fears. Shows it all to you, to give you the option to choose love and acceptance. You don't have to obey the shadow, just love it into unity.  It shows, what is to be surrendered.

Juergen wrote:
: That dialogue with conscience however, can also be considered a grace of the Shadow. how far this is special for Shamans i can not tell.
: I don't think i am a Shaman, but this isn't strange to me either; sometimes my spiteful Ex is turning up as a spokesperson, sometimes other people, according to the situation. Not a special Teacher like Mystress' Armand, but teaching it is, nonetheless(i think).

I agree. That is how it seems to be for Kundalites, what you see is yourself reflected and the shadow shows up as your issues with other people. What you judge and resist.

 I admire the simple and elegant work of Byron Katie: Judging is inevitable, just remember to always turn it around and apply it to yourself as well.

: Yvla Wrote:
: >I am not sure I have ONE shadow, or form of such. In dreams, I am often confronted by a group of people with a
: >female leader who is a bit like a typical school bully with minions (who don't really do much, but seem to be their
: >to make 'them' look bigger).
Juergen wrote:
: A bully who feels a little fragile(see Your other dream) so She needs a bunch of minions at Her side to look bigger... i guess this makes sense, given that You didn't think You were a bully.

: Yvla wrote:
: >One, very wispy and almost transparent character had gotten 'married' to my DB in my dream. (this was a ehile ago.)
: >DB seeemd shocked to see me, she didn't seem to know anything. It wasn't that there had been a mistake and he had
: >married the wrong person... but it appeared to be a temporary situation. I also got the feeling that it was because
: >it was the only part of me that had yet been available to him. He seemed to be trying to figure out what to do,
: >inevitably we would have to be together at some point... In the dream though, my biggest concern was that I didn't
: >want to hurt that girl... she seemed so lonely and helpless. He seemd to know this, but still wanting to reach me
: >somehow. I have later figured out that the situation seems to be that she is some kind of disowned fragment from my
: >teens and he is taking care of her for now.

Feels right to me. You know, he loves every part of you and it is not unfaithfullness to love your other parts. Through each sacred marriage your aspects become unified.

Juergen wrote:
: That's interesting, cause it confirms what i have guessed about male Divine Beloveds: That they really desire to empower 'Their' Woman's Self;

All Divine Beloveds seek to empower the spiritual spouse.

Juergen wrote:
: interesting that he cared about that abandoned fragmant of Your past and as it seems, even achieve to reconcile You with that Shadowy aspect. It's moving.

Of course. All your karma matters, to the DB.

: Yvla wrote:
: >Then there is one guy who just HATES me (and all women, for that matter). I am a worthless piece of shit who
: >shouldn't dare get in his way. Perhaps he's a masculine piece of me that hates being trapped in a female body, and
: >wishes that 'we' had been born a man, so this could have been 'his' life, and his body. He seems to feel that I am
: >absolutely incompetent at life and I should kill myself or something.

I have encountered such fellas before, in the feminine consciousness.  He is a manifestation of your issues with men, a shadow aspect of you. The bully is probably the woman he hates most- they reflect each other. She may be a manifestation of feminist victimhood/agression. "Take back the night" marches and "all men are potential rapists".
You created them both, and you can love them to death... into unity. They represent important aspects of your personal power.

Juergen wrote:
: As usual there is fear to take (individual) responsibility for this and You project it on that bringer of bad tidings(that macho type thing) who only functions as a tool of the collective Shadow.

: Yvla wrote:
: >Someimes there are some evil-seeming people who want to 'make a deal'. They want me to feel its all hopeless and
: >that its pointless for me to fight them because I am too weak and useless. If I give in, I always end up in big
: >trouble (I get sedated or locked up somewhere) and they laugh and leer at me and say that I will never see DB
: >again...

That is excellent. The astral- dream world is where the power chakra issues get worked out. I watched the movie "Labyrinth" last night- parts of it anyway, we had it on while making soap. One scene, big stone faces on the wall are saying "beware." I remembered them as "Nagging Doubts" but the script called them "False Alarms" and warned not to pay attention to their noise.

 Isn't it wonderful when dreams and art give such clear metaphors?  When you feel powerless you are more likely to bargain away power, and end up worse off. Truth is, you are never powerless but give power away to the nagging doubts that suck energy from goals.

 You have already said how you trade power for peace... leaving your body.  

Juergen wrote:
We have created a system in favor of psychopaths, be they ghosts, animals, men, warfare kids, killer bees, HIV virus stems etc.

Now you give power away to some strange entity called "the system." Is it anything like "the matrix?" Ya get what ya pray for...

: To clear this we need a higher level of common sense, which seems also provided by Goddess, within FST, what a grace !

Mysticims is common sense...?? I like that! LOL!! It does seem so, to me.

  Interesting thread, I am enjoying reading it.
   Blessings...

Thank you! Okay! I suppose my tendency to assume responsibility for everything and feel guilty might first have been imposed on me by my mother, who recently passed away. She used guilt as a mean of upbringing and was so anxious to avoid conflicts with other parents (or even kids) that she most often directed her corrections at me even when I did not participate in the mischief. And when other parents apologized for the behavior of their kids, she always answered that I was not better, in spite of the fact that I was very quiet and calm. This might have made me somewhat anxious and thus made me an easy prey for bullies who wanted to project their feelings of guilt on somebody else by acting out their dramas. Often, especially in my fist year at school I think, I was blamed for things with which I had nothing to do or for which I was not responsible. For instance, I remember once, when I was 6 or maybe 7, a 2 or 3 years older boy attacked me in the boys%rsquo bathroom at school, tackling me into the washbasin, which came loose from the wall. Then he started yelling; %ldquoLook what you did! Destroyer! Destroyer! Destroyer!%rdquo several times. At 6 I wasn%rsquot able to defend myself in that situation. I was terrified. If he would blame me for what had happened, what could I do? Take on the blame and get punished or blame him and probably get punished anyway and then have him torturing me even worse later? I couldn%rsquot go to my parents, as they would only have blamed me. Therefore I quietly assumed responsibility in all bullying situations as an attempt to escape further harassment. It did not work. As I had exactly no defenses, the older boys could do exactly what the wanted with me. And they did %ndash I was tortures almost every break at school (there were no teachers patrolling the school yard). The pain was unbelievable. It was worse when I was 9, then it slowly got better, until we got a new teacher who started patrolling the school yard when I was 12. I suppose I am still trapped in the pattern of being harassed and then made responsible without any opportunity to defend myself. My problem is, what can I do about it?

:Guilt feelings are negative, and cannot be Devil's work since he is a guide, a friend. I would call it "Pseudo conscience". But the Devil or Portal Guardian, helps us by reflecting this nonsense back 'till we finally see the truth: that it is really nonsense(that guilt pangs stuff).
So You say that guilt outbursts grew lesser as you grew older; indicating that the healing principle works. I have more details in the reply to Ylva, yeah She's a lady... :)
:Hey once more: The PG seems have done His work, but as you analyzed it, you must have messed it up again: Your beliefs of 'being rightfully to blame' etc: seems you blamed yourself against your own very interests! Then of corse Karma is built, to show up on your kundalini work.

in the brain gender lesson,essay lesson there are very interesting remarks about the nature of karma, and its circular pattern.
So what appears to us as a theme of life or a lesson of life, a meaningful thing of destiny, is truly nothing but chaos, superstition, Karma, Ego.

But if we rank Karma as something Divine, it is of course hard to surrender.

There is often a confusion of the Devine with parental issues, since they appear as gods, and want to leave kids in that belief.

Then in school and with the bullies, i think you were very actively, 'though unconsciouly, doing that 'responsibility-magic' power-magick based on that ego-content, so it becomes hell.

Just being a good son: Mom wishes son responsible, son does some magick and appears responsible.
You say you were quiet, and your Mom was supposedly too; so it is likely, that she projected her Divine Beloved onto You, so you had to be responsible: it is not probable, that a mother wants her son really quiet and calm, so she must have really confused you(like all patriarchal women are extremely confusing, sigh).

Your obviously strong power chakra must have contributed its own share, so you work so successful against yourself.

Just be aware that you are a child of Goddess, not of your parents: they have nothing to do with Divine flow.

Btw: i'm enjoying a lot that story of your session with Mystress and the 'secretary' of Your Divine Beloved, Mystress got such a heartful of humor :)
Personally i find the idea suits me well, to be the secretary of my DB!

smiles...

: Thank you! Okay! I suppose my tendency to assume responsibility for everything and feel guilty might first have been imposed on me by my mother, who recently passed away. She used guilt as a mean of upbringing and was so anxious to avoid conflicts with other parents (or even kids) that she most often directed her corrections at me even when I did not participate in the mischief. And when other parents apologized for the behavior of their kids, she always answered that I was not better, in spite of the fact that I was very quiet and calm. This might have made me somewhat anxious and thus made me an easy prey for bullies who wanted to project their feelings of guilt on somebody else by acting out their dramas. Often, especially in my fist year at school I think, I was blamed for things with which I had nothing to do or for which I was not responsible. For instance, I remember once, when I was 6 or maybe 7, a 2 or 3 years older boy attacked me in the boys%rsquo bathroom at school, tackling me into the washbasin, which came loose from the wall. Then he started yelling; %ldquoLook what you did! Destroyer! Destroyer! Destroyer!%rdquo several times. At 6 I wasn%rsquot able to defend myself in that situation. I was terrified. If he would blame me for what had happened, what could I do? Take on the blame and get punished or blame him and probably get punished anyway and then have him torturing me even worse later? I couldn%rsquot go to my parents, as they would only have blamed me. Therefore I quietly assumed responsibility in all bullying situations as an attempt to escape further harassment. It did not work. As I had exactly no defenses, the older boys could do exactly what the wanted with me. And they did %ndash I was tortures almost every break at school (there were no teachers patrolling the school yard). The pain was unbelievable. It was worse when I was 9, then it slowly got better, until we got a new teacher who started patrolling the school yard when I was 12. I suppose I am still trapped in the pattern of being harassed and then made responsible without any opportunity to defend myself. My problem is, what can I do about it?

: :Guilt feelings are negative, and cannot be Devil's work since he is a guide, a friend. I would call it "Pseudo conscience". But the Devil or Portal Guardian, helps us by reflecting this nonsense back 'till we finally see the truth: that it is really nonsense(that guilt pangs stuff).
: So You say that guilt outbursts grew lesser as you grew older; indicating that the healing principle works. I have more details in the reply to Ylva, yeah She's a lady... :)
: :Hey once more: The PG seems have done His work, but as you analyzed it, you must have messed it up again: Your beliefs of 'being rightfully to blame' etc: seems you blamed yourself against your own very interests! Then of corse Karma is built, to show up on your kundalini work.

: Juergen wrote:
: : Another term for Shadow is conscience, and the Shadow's acts are the voice of conscience, so in this way by The Shadow we can understand conscience(Which is a great experience for me, hooray!).

: That is a very interesting insight. The shadow is about boundaries, the power chakra is about boundaries, and conscience divines what is Karma and what is Dharma.  Part of its nature is the Viel between the ego and the DB. Portal Guardian, the consciousness that guards the gates.. The angel with the flaming sword who guards Eden, none who fear may pass here. Border patrol.

:    It is a reflection of your ego's fears. Shows it all to you, to give you the option to choose love and acceptance. You don't have to obey the shadow, just love it into unity.  It shows, what is to be surrendered.

ThankYou! these ideas have been triggered from this:
The flaming sword is indeed a fearful thing, wild animals have fear of fire; so the flaming sword is a good symbol for the fear of Eden, fear of "the Lord", fear of the "Lord's Angel" or the Light.
Karma feels like hell(thru conscience) and hell is void of Love, so desire for Love becomes stronger, fear becomes outpowered. Fear of the flame, fear of the knife: fear of being cooked and eaten! Love-bites!
The PG and Divine Beloved work indeed hand in hand, so it is natural to love them altogether.

The power chakra does also work seemingly fearless, even when the fear of Eden is still not surrendered: As a state where everything seems alright, and failures appear to be 'tragic, undeserved, unforeseeable', where people turn away from their religion for unjust fits of fate...
I think it's about a compensation of one fear with another courage(of the power chakra). And perhaps that still present fear('fear of god') is used as a turn-on to have these adrenalin-kick sensations and experience these things for a while.

:   I admire the simple and elegant work of Byron Katie: Judging is inevitable, just remember to always turn it around and apply it to yourself as well.

Oh yes!!! It's fantastic: just to experiment replacing thoughts of unhappiness and helplessness with happier ones, by simple conversions; by shifting from helplessness to responsibility and initiative. Quite new to me; once i used to think: first make at least 100 revolutions, before any other action makes sense...
I think these are essentially moves from chaos to more order. Last not least it seems to be a method to learn from other peoples faults, instead of fruitless circular patterned judgements of their misbehavior.

: Juergen wrote:
: We have created a system in favor of psychopaths, be they ghosts, animals, men, warfare kids, killer bees, HIV virus stems etc.

: Now you give power away to some strange entity called "the system." Is it anything like "the matrix?" Ya get what ya pray for...

You caught me falling back into old thinking habits; feeling overwhelmed by an 'allmighty system', sliding unconsciously into negative prayer. If i'm separate from hell, i cannot be responsible and make it better.

: Mysticims is common sense...?? I like that! LOL!! It does seem so, to me.

That "Hawaian Guy"(Ho'oponopono) for instance, or Your own campaign for sexual freedom, or mystic teaching in general...Some are helping the police, or give advice: share uncommon knowledge.

Thank you! I certainly never confused the bullying with something divine, although when seeking for a rational explanation I have sometimes wondered if there could be another explanation than that it was the rightful punishment for something I did in a former life. Nor did I ever perceive the bullying as some important pattern of my life. (On the contrary I did a lot to get away from old patterns and became a very successful scientist, but only to end up kind of stuck in what might be the worse bullying-workplace in the world.) On the other hand, it is true that the thought forms that made me unable to really try to tell on the bullies effectively were really strong in my mind.

There was not only the more or less hidden impact of my mother%rsquos ways of explaining things so that I felt responsible, holding me responsible, telling others how naughty I was and so on. There was also an unwritten law for kids, that %ldquoyou never tell on other kids%rdquo, and for some reason it was very important for me to obey to such rules. Of course, I sometimes tried to tell my mother or father about what was going on all the time, but their reactions were so strong and negative that I did not dare to go on. I suppose they somehow must have known or suspected it (e.g. I had bruises all over my body), but they were not able to deal with it. So they just immediately quieted me very effectively with blame when I tried to tell them about it. The only thing that I can think of that might have worked would probably have been if I had told my grandfather, who was formerly an important person in our village. He was 81 years old when this started, but he might still have been able to do something. But I never dared to tell him. So, even if I did not consciously misinterpret these thought patterns for divine, they certainly had an almost divine impact on my life situation.

I don%rsquot know for sure about magic, as I don%rsquot think it was needed. The pattern of severe outrages against other kids on that school-yard was not created by me. There were others before me. I knew one, who died rather young and another one who is still bullied at his present workplace. And there were others after me. One was a girl who, I have been told, is still living with her mother in the same village and has never dared to live the house of her mother for many years. Another was a boy, who I believe might have proceeded to higher education like I did. Similarly, at my present workplace a lot of people have been suffering severely from bullying. On the other hand, if there is magic, I really need to undo it to change my present situation.

So, please Goddess, take all responsibility and guilt magic and manipulated responsibility and guilt in my life. Take it in top down fashion from point of origin and please take the holes too. They are all yours!  Thank you very much!

After all, as far as i can see, you were actively participating in this and helping make that school-hell grow, probably encourage the torturers to seek other victims and enlarge the game.
By your absolute pliability, You made them an offer they simply couldn't reject.
On another level you are All, and certainly a great magician, and however that may work unconsciously, it works in alignment with ego: body language, subliminal signs, behavior hard to verbalize.
You say there was a moral code not to tell on other kids, but that's another shoe: as i understand the events, it was the "bullies" who +told on you+ and made you responsible for things caused by themselves! So you would not be bound to any code whatsoever, furthermore you broke a more binding code by lying(=confirming their false accusations). So it is not astonishing you got into conscious-trouble(the inner conscience from All, not from pseudo-gods like teachers, bullies, parents), and felt/feel guilty.
By following these thought patterns you made all that crappy people be Goddess for you, although you certainly didn't consider them as Goddess :)
This is in no ways meant as an excuse for the other participators. I also did a lot like you describe but from time to time gave other signals: of my determination to escalate a possible slaughter on verbally ALL levels: a prescription how David can frighten Goliath.
Later when i learned of atomic power i became scared of that, because it seemed logic that following a path of firm resolution would lead to destroying the branch we are all sitting on. However since then i never felt really happy, and i seem to pursue much of the mindset you are presenting here; moreover have been exposed to a lot of nagging doubts of rotating vicious circles, of which you seem so far be spared of.
Signaling merciless placidness is no path i can recommend, thus.
There is a similar pattern in battered women and wifes: Some Ones seem to really attract it, while there are not few males who think their physical force is an acceptable "peacemaker". But a general impression is conveyed, that there are statistical frequencies in certain women to become victims of violence, while some women get never in trouble throughout their life.
I had a time as a kid and later, when i attracted trouble with dogs. I was already angered and pissed that dogs are allowed at all. This was reinforced by newspaper articles of victims often severely torn or even killed. Still my judgement is not in favor of keeping dogs, but since i have stopped to feel threatened, i'm much more relaxed about direct encounterings.
Just by changing perspective and view myself as All, along with the conscience and responsibility, this has an effect.
But the ego has also some kind of conscience and responsibility(like you had as a victim of school-bulllies) , but it feels different.
Sometimes i'm conscious of creating hell and what a fun it is, and being conscious i'm  also having control over it, experience and examine it.(Maybe even to compare it with the silverlinings of heaven i believe to witness occasionally).
Ego-conscience goes with fun and cynism, the price is hell: absence of love and being lonesome. To be friends with every guy in the village and attend each funeral and have the whole village on one's own burial; and the bells ringing especially for the deceased. But still sooo lonesome...
So i become aware of the one or other intrigue i concocted or tried to concoct in the past, also as a kid. Not that i was very good at it, but the awareness grows.
In a village, people have their peculiarities: fear of discord is very distinct, naturally, but from the concept of a village, especially in a modern country these structures are not all that sane, still in the experimental stage, like everywhere else.
As soon as we have enough of the fun of hell, i think we have means to signal this, if we really make a choice for 'out of hell': into heaven. When we accept that ALL IS we have to accept that Magick of ALL IS, and we get equipped with heaven's powers, seems atleast natural to me, just other(and stronger) magick than magick of hell. This power has its own signals, we know as charisma, charismatic persons are not likely to be bullied. They need not make hints that their country has an arsenal of all heard and unheard weapon-systems which will be mobilized inevitably, if someone dare to put their hand on them.
What we falsely often do -if i may here generalize from my own foibles- is to try to do heaven work on the hell engine...
...Failing to follow the doctrine of the famous leap of faith, which would imply to just exchange our basic ego thoughts by thoughts presented and proposed here in this course and give them a fair chance. How this evolves may also be a function of how much the shoe of hell is already hurting.
Now i have great faith in this power from the position of Eden or from 'ALL IS', that all these conflicts of hell may be influenced in a healthy and healing way in accordance with magical ethics "For the Good of all and harm to none", very similar to the healing work of "that Hawaian Guy".

Quite often people express their hopes in the young generation, to pull the chestnuts out of the fire. But did we? Probably the Kundalini work is a more promising attempt of a rejuvenation, and then it may have some boost for the youth as well.
So we may be not all that wrong here,

again smiles..

: Thank you! I certainly never confused the bullying with something divine, although when seeking for a rational explanation I have sometimes wondered if there could be another explanation than that it was the rightful punishment for something I did in a former life. Nor did I ever perceive the bullying as some important pattern of my life. (On the contrary I did a lot to get away from old patterns and became a very successful scientist, but only to end up kind of stuck in what might be the worse bullying-workplace in the world.) On the other hand, it is true that the thought forms that made me unable to really try to tell on the bullies effectively were really strong in my mind.

: There was not only the more or less hidden impact of my mother%rsquos ways of explaining things so that I felt responsible, holding me responsible, telling others how naughty I was and so on. There was also an unwritten law for kids, that %ldquoyou never tell on other kids%rdquo, and for some reason it was very important for me to obey to such rules. Of course, I sometimes tried to tell my mother or father about what was going on all the time, but their reactions were so strong and negative that I did not dare to go on. I suppose they somehow must have known or suspected it (e.g. I had bruises all over my body), but they were not able to deal with it. So they just immediately quieted me very effectively with blame when I tried to tell them about it. The only thing that I can think of that might have worked would probably have been if I had told my grandfather, who was formerly an important person in our village. He was 81 years old when this started, but he might still have been able to do something. But I never dared to tell him. So, even if I did not consciously misinterpret these thought patterns for divine, they certainly had an almost divine impact on my life situation.

: I don%rsquot know for sure about magic, as I don%rsquot think it was needed. The pattern of severe outrages against other kids on that school-yard was not created by me. There were others before me. I knew one, who died rather young and another one who is still bullied at his present workplace. And there were others after me. One was a girl who, I have been told, is still living with her mother in the same village and has never dared to live the house of her mother for many years. Another was a boy, who I believe might have proceeded to higher education like I did. Similarly, at my present workplace a lot of people have been suffering severely from bullying. On the other hand, if there is magic, I really need to undo it to change my present situation.

: So, please Goddess, take all responsibility and guilt magic and manipulated responsibility and guilt in my life. Take it in top down fashion from point of origin and please take the holes too. They are all yours!  Thank you very much!

Thank you! This discussion is very helpful to help me sort out these bullying matters.

Actually, there were not more victims, but rather less, after me than before. And when I was 12 most of the school yard bullying stopped as a new main teacher started to patrol the schoolyard during the breaks. So, if I was actively participating in the bullying and helped make that school-hell grow, it was only directed at me, I believe. The bullies never told on me, as far as I can remember. They just accused me of being responsible for things as part of the harassment. If I would really have done some mischief, I think they would never have told on me either. The boys never told on each other, but the girls sometimes did.

Actually, the bullying was mostly plain physical and only superficially psychological. I was not excluded from anything. We were somehow still %ldquofriends%rdquo. In fact, as there was a constant lack of numbers for different sports and games, the other kids most often wanted me to participate. And amongst my playmates on my free time I was often de facto the leader, because I had a lot of ideas on what to do and how to do it. My attitude towards the bullies was not condemning. I got angry and disliked their behavior but I never portrayed them as devils or something alike in my mind. I got better when it comes to finding faults with others when I was in my 20ies. Today, I perceive my bullies as rather unhappy people who try to compensate for their own lack of success by picking on people who are more successful (but not strong enough, when it comes to powerful friends, to be unreachable).

I don%rsquot know what to say about charisma. I have sometimes been told I am a charismatic person, but still I am bullied. Of course, what I have been told might not be true. (When it comes to dogs, I have always loved them and they most often love me back. I was brought up with a dog and was never afraid of a dog as a child. I just walked right up to the biggest and must scary dogs and gave them a hug. And they liked it. I have often surprised people with how well I get along with dogs who normally do not allow anyone to come close.)

The heart chakra is said to be the key to influence reality. It is when the heart is opening that we get the power to create our reality. Therefore, we are recommended to be careful for what we wish for, because it comes true. Of course this takes some time of training and practice, so it is not surprising if we happen to do some %ldquoheaven work on the hell engine%rdquo and create a hell somewhere on the way. Obviously, it%rsquos quite a challenge only to hold %ldquogood%rdquo beliefs, as most beliefs are unconscious and most of the beliefs that appear as good at first sight are accompanied with a lot of presuppositions which are not equally good. Actually, it is by the sole distinction of good from evil that evil is crated!

Now, this appears to be much of a Jesus Thing!

Holding the other cheek.
Because they don't know what they do...
Solidarity with the suffering.
Scape-goat, God's lamb.

Those lads were probably abused kids, who were made responsible for their parents unhappiness, and they passed this on to you, thus the responsible-theme.

Maybe they sensed an "injustice", because you were not being abused like they were, at home, or you got better scores at school, and their transgressions against you were a sort of "getting even"; equality has a higher ranking among school-boys, also in the military within combat units i think. After what you say they were not malicious in the true sense, they really seemed to believe that you were guilty and responsible, as a part of the scape-goat ritual, and you seemed to believe it too.
'No doubt' is certainly an ingredient of successful magick; no doubt owns to the heart chakra, it owns to children, it owns to Christ; Christ is also the Child, the miracle doer, the Guru of doubtless belief, doubtless love.
It is reported that kids loose their spiritual gift when growing older, (as doubts come with age).
And the curse of these often repeated rituals seems still to weigh heavily on you, is this a wonder?
"Innocent magick"; so many complications go back to childhood; i remember once by an elder neighbour boy i was told a name or a quality; i didn't know that word, i didn't even remember, what he said, only that it was meant to mean s.th. evil, that i was totally damned; i can still feel that impression, that's what christian people do to each other, on the country side.

It is also quite commonplace that mild people have a tendency to feel guilty for their gifts.

Well, on some locations, Jesus shows another face as well...

smiling once more

Now, this appears to be much of a Jesus Thing!

Holding the other cheek.
Because they don't know what they do...
Solidarity with the suffering.
Scape-goat, God's lamb.

Those lads were probably abused kids, who were made responsible for their parents unhappiness, and they passed this on to you, thus the responsible-theme.

Maybe they sensed an "injustice", because you were not being abused like they were, at home, or you got better scores at school, and their transgressions against you were a sort of "getting even"; equality has a higher ranking among school-boys, also in the military within combat units i think. After what you say they were not malicious in the true sense, they really seemed to believe that you were guilty and responsible, as a part of the scape-goat ritual, and you seemed to believe it too.
'No doubt' is certainly an ingredient of successful magick; no doubt owns to the heart chakra, it owns to children, it owns to Christ; Christ is also the Child, the miracle doer, the Guru of doubtless belief, doubtless love.
It is reported that kids loose their spiritual gift when growing older, (as doubts come with age).
And the curse of these often repeated rituals seems still to weigh heavily on you, is this a wonder?
"Innocent magick"; so many complications go back to childhood; i remember once by an elder neighbour boy i was told a name or a quality; i didn't know that word, i didn't even remember, what he said, only that it was meant to mean s.th. evil, that i was totally damned; i can still feel that impression, that's what christian people do to each other, on the country side.

It is also quite commonplace that mild people have a tendency to feel guilty for their gifts.

Well, on some locations, Jesus shows another face as well...

smiling once more( what can i do ? )

: Thank you! This discussion is very helpful to help me sort out these bullying matters.

: Actually, there were not more victims, but rather less, after me than before. And when I was 12 most of the school yard bullying stopped as a new main teacher started to patrol the schoolyard during the breaks. So, if I was actively participating in the bullying and helped make that school-hell grow, it was only directed at me, I believe. The bullies never told on me, as far as I can remember. They just accused me of being responsible for things as part of the harassment. If I would really have done some mischief, I think they would never have told on me either. The boys never told on each other, but the girls sometimes did.

: Actually, the bullying was mostly plain physical and only superficially psychological. I was not excluded from anything. We were somehow still %ldquofriends%rdquo. In fact, as there was a constant lack of numbers for different sports and games, the other kids most often wanted me to participate. And amongst my playmates on my free time I was often de facto the leader, because I had a lot of ideas on what to do and how to do it. My attitude towards the bullies was not condemning. I got angry and disliked their behavior but I never portrayed them as devils or something alike in my mind. I got better when it comes to finding faults with others when I was in my 20ies. Today, I perceive my bullies as rather unhappy people who try to compensate for their own lack of success by picking on people who are more successful (but not strong enough, when it comes to powerful friends, to be unreachable).

: I don%rsquot know what to say about charisma. I have sometimes been told I am a charismatic person, but still I am bullied. Of course, what I have been told might not be true. (When it comes to dogs, I have always loved them and they most often love me back. I was brought up with a dog and was never afraid of a dog as a child. I just walked right up to the biggest and must scary dogs and gave them a hug. And they liked it. I have often surprised people with how well I get along with dogs who normally do not allow anyone to come close.)

: The heart chakra is said to be the key to influence reality. It is when the heart is opening that we get the power to create our reality. Therefore, we are recommended to be careful for what we wish for, because it comes true. Of course this takes some time of training and practice, so it is not surprising if we happen to do some %ldquoheaven work on the hell engine%rdquo and create a hell somewhere on the way. Obviously, it%rsquos quite a challenge only to hold %ldquogood%rdquo beliefs, as most beliefs are unconscious and most of the beliefs that appear as good at first sight are accompanied with a lot of presuppositions which are not equally good. Actually, it is by the sole distinction of good from evil that evil is crated!

my latest answer makes funny jumps in the structure, it landed somewhere below, but still within this thread!
A poltergeist?
lets see where this one ends...

: %rdquoAnd obvious is not the presenter, so near is that collecting box before the nose, that you can't see the soldier; certain pangs of conscience are the closest hint i can get, hinting at the Shadow Self.%rdquo

: If this is the Shadow Self, I am indeed very acquainted to it since I was a young boy. I was a very quiet boy and was seldom up to any mischief. Still I was often overwhelmed by strong feelings of guilt, such as when I tried to make love to a neighbor%rsquos girl. In that case I suppose I had some reason to feel guilty. But in most cases, it was only about very insignificant things (as that was almost all I did). They were probably sometimes only symbolic, a lesson to learn, such as when I took some totally unimportant waste from one persons land and moved it to another person%rsquos property. I was awake that night worrying about it for hours and wanted to go back in the middle of the night to put it back. The lesson was that I had no right to remove things from others property or to decide for others what was important and what was only waste. I have had these outbursts of guilt all my life, but as I grew older they got less frequent and less overwhelming. I suppose I learned to analyze the situation and decide for myself what the lesson was and whether I was rightfully to blame or not. These attacks have also been connected to what I have later recognized as my kundalini experience. In periods where I had a lot of glimpses of higher states of consciousness, they got stronger and more frequent. As a boy I thought I just had a week nervous system. Still, that does not seem to have been the case.

Now, lets se where this post lands! I try to put it where you tried to put the post cited below.

I have been trying to understand what those school yard bullies thought they did when torturing me. I don%rsquot think they fully understood what they did. Probably they thought it was some kind of funny game (role play), which was basically consensual, although they sometimes (read: always) freaked out and (as they might have said) %ldquotook it a little bit too far%rdquo.

But what did they think when they where at their worse? On many occasions, such as when the boy tackled me into the basin and accused me of having destroyed it, and of being a %ldquodestroyer%rdquo, I am rather sure they acted out some kind of script, most likely from situations where they had been abused or had other traumatic experiences. I suppose you are right when suggesting that many of these kids were abused, and they kind of %ldquopassed it on%rdquo to me.

On other occasions they were probably more aware of what they did. It was some kind of experiment. Testing the limits, copying events from pulp magazines or films, boosting and showing younger boys what could be done etc. E.g., I remember once there were two or three two or three years older boys holding my arms behind my back and holding me still while a smaller kid, who was one year younger than me, was punching my face with his fist over and over again, each time collecting his swings from far behind his back. (Maybe this younger boy was ashamed of what he did, because later (when I was 11 or 12) we made really good friends for several years, which made a major change in my life. In the weekends and holidays I often visited him in his village (and even lived there for periods), where the kids and adults of all ages kept together and were much nicer to each others than in my village. While playing with this kids I suddenly found out I was often the leader, as my friend was very popular and I was stronger and better on many sports than him and the other kids. This did a lot to my self confidence.)

The abuse often started as what at least looked like an innocent kids%rsquo game. Then it went out of hand. But sometimes I managed to stop it from going out of hand. This was when I was able to make the bullies laugh instead of getting furious, or whatever they did. This was rather late, when I was old enough to have some self esteem.

When it comes to me, I was mostly only confused. I was overwhelmed with unendurable pain and did not know what to think or what to do. Even if I was physically punished three times by my parents, the atmosphere in my home was, much thank to my mother, very nice and generous (although strong negative feelings or complaints were not allowed) and very different from what some of the other kids were used to. So, when I started school I had the natural self confidence of a kid who has never been confronted with evil. And this is known to make abused kids furious. I did not even try to fight back effectively, when it was not just for fun, as fighting and wishing to hurt others was simply not part of my world. In many ways I was the most innocent victim you could imagine. I was too different from them to adjust to the new environment and start to abuse other kids myself. And I had no strategies to defend myself. I never learned to fight or fought back seriously even when I was later attacked by smaller kids. It just wasn%rsquot me. I noticed that other kids started crying when they were abused by bullies, so I did too, but it helped only for a while. Sometimes, when the physical abuse was very severe, I thought that if I just let it go on they would seriously hurt me so that the abuse became so obvious that someone would have to do something about it, but that never happened. Still I did not perceive myself as innocent or was consciously holding the other cheek. I did not understand that they were abused. If I had any thoughts about that, I probably just thought they lost their minds and didn%rsquot know what they did. That was because when they did not abuse me, most of them could be really nice. Still I was chocked and disgusted by their behavior.

On basis of these observations, I suppose I should also ask how my reaction to the bullies%rsquo first attacks might have influenced them. Most likely, I would have avoided much of the bullying had I reacted differently. It might have helped if I had managed to just laugh at them, at least if I had managed to make them laugh too. And maybe it would also have worked if I had turned mad, fist fighting, kicking and screaming at them. If I had managed to hurt any of them this might have made them think twice before they attacked me again. But I also wonder what they thought about me and my reaction to their harassment. The other boy who was bullied, who was probably three years younger than me, was perceived as somewhat proud because he did not speak the local dialect and spoke in a way that somehow indicated that he considered himself very important. I did not act like that, but my speech might still have been somewhat different from the other boys%rsquo, as my mother did not speak the local dialect. It is also possible, that when I reacted with disgust to their behavior they might have perceived me as proud in some way, or at least different, as they were probably used to harassment from their homes and that the reaction they saw in my eyes reminded them of their own torments.

Yes, %ldquothe curse of these often repeated rituals%rdquo still seems to weigh heavily on me, especially as I am still bullied. But %ldquostill%rdquo is not the right word here. I wasn%rsquot bullied for about 20 years; then it started at my workplace. Now it is obvious to me that much of this stuff is related to the heart chakra and I suppose it might have been from the beginning. The reason why I am bullied to day is obvious. I am very good at my job, while most of the bullies are not and I suspect they fear being exposed for incompetence. So they have to use other means to keep me back at their level of success %ndash or at least try to. As the present managers are also more or less involved they encourage the bullies to make accusations and tell them lies about me. This is a difficult situation. It does not help me if I manage to feel better %ndash I am still in their hands.

In Reply to: Re: Mirror Game / DB Shadow posted by Vyana on May 22, 2007 at 04:10:50:
Now, this appears to be much of a Jesus Thing!
Holding the other cheek.
Because they don't know what they do...
Solidarity with the suffering.
Scape-goat, God's lamb.
Those lads were probably abused kids, who were made responsible for their parents unhappiness, and they passed this on to you, thus the responsible-theme.
Maybe they sensed an "injustice", because you were not being abused like they were, at home, or you got better scores at school, and their transgressions against you were a sort of "getting even"; equality has a higher ranking among school-boys, also in the military within combat units i think. After what you say they were not malicious in the true sense, they really seemed to believe that you were guilty and responsible, as a part of the scape-goat ritual, and you seemed to believe it too.
'No doubt' is certainly an ingredient of successful magick; no doubt owns to the heart chakra, it owns to children, it owns to Christ; Christ is also the Child, the miracle doer, the Guru of doubtless belief, doubtless love.
It is reported that kids loose their spiritual gift when growing older, (as doubts come with age).
And the curse of these often repeated rituals seems still to weigh heavily on you, is this a wonder?
"Innocent magick"; so many complications go back to childhood; i remember once by an elder neighbour boy i was told a name or a quality; i didn't know that word, i didn't even remember, what he said, only that it was meant to mean s.th. evil, that i was totally damned; i can still feel that impression, that's what christian people do to each other, on the country side.
It is also quite commonplace that mild people have a tendency to feel guilty for their gifts.
Well, on some locations, Jesus shows another face as well...
smiling once more( what can i do ? )

all right your post seemed landed where yo expected, good trick!

The classic solution would probably be to become a bully, too.
Which You resisted, but have been lacking another answer as well.
So much could be said, about the psychology of stupid villagers, but to what avail.
If i scan the Divine Beloved Higher Self Tandem, i arrive at: Love and Strength(ideally).
Love could be talk; but first Love has to be Love; i have often or at least sometimes had the feeling that my love is just not strong enough, be maybe higher than other people's love, but not high enough, like with escape velocity(of rockets to leave earth gravity): below Ve. I have seen or heard of examples of people not too far away from me who had that gift; not in standard situations, but in special situations where they have never been before.
Just talking difficult cases into playing along, educating them, assimilating them(5th).
To signal other people you'd never go to the weapons is problematic; even if you would be ready to take out the axe, but signal you wouldn't, is not useful; "Saint" is a common swearword.
To signal them a possible advantage for a consensual behavior and get them a glance of the bad cop too, might be an alley to more agreeability; you already manage this with dogs, probably you don't expect them on one level with you, but you find a common denominator and it works fine. Ought to be possible with various persons too. But mad people are more complex and we need a fuller strength and range of the Higher Self to manifest in the body, so that language/body language can be expressed credibly; so many examples by actors!( have you seen Mystress' Europe Gallery? She got this too, really!); so on my agenda i have:
Grounding(seeking for relaxation/trance-breathing, tranced by Divine Beloved just before drawing the light down)
Divine Beloved
(Her) Shadow
In the wake of this: getting thru the veil to Higher Self.

give Yourself and the bullies the chance to know your true character, at least for my own part i'll try my best! Better Divine Beloved have Her way with me completely, than any crappy people; unconditional love is first of all for *All that Is*, which is Love again; so i have trust She won't lead me anywhere that grows hate and fear or any bullyship.

: Now, lets se where this post lands! I try to put it where you tried to put the post cited below.

: I have been trying to understand what those school yard bullies thought they did when torturing me. I don%rsquot think they fully understood what they did. Probably they thought it was some kind of funny game (role play), which was basically consensual, although they sometimes (read: always) freaked out and (as they might have said) %ldquotook it a little bit too far%rdquo.

: But what did they think when they where at their worse? On many occasions, such as when the boy tackled me into the basin and accused me of having destroyed it, and of being a %ldquodestroyer%rdquo, I am rather sure they acted out some kind of script, most likely from situations where they had been abused or had other traumatic experiences. I suppose you are right when suggesting that many of these kids were abused, and they kind of %ldquopassed it on%rdquo to me.

: On other occasions they were probably more aware of what they did. It was some kind of experiment. Testing the limits, copying events from pulp magazines or films, boosting and showing younger boys what could be done etc. E.g., I remember once there were two or three two or three years older boys holding my arms behind my back and holding me still while a smaller kid, who was one year younger than me, was punching my face with his fist over and over again, each time collecting his swings from far behind his back. (Maybe this younger boy was ashamed of what he did, because later (when I was 11 or 12) we made really good friends for several years, which made a major change in my life. In the weekends and holidays I often visited him in his village (and even lived there for periods), where the kids and adults of all ages kept together and were much nicer to each others than in my village. While playing with this kids I suddenly found out I was often the leader, as my friend was very popular and I was stronger and better on many sports than him and the other kids. This did a lot to my self confidence.)

: The abuse often started as what at least looked like an innocent kids%rsquo game. Then it went out of hand. But sometimes I managed to stop it from going out of hand. This was when I was able to make the bullies laugh instead of getting furious, or whatever they did. This was rather late, when I was old enough to have some self esteem.

: When it comes to me, I was mostly only confused. I was overwhelmed with unendurable pain and did not know what to think or what to do. Even if I was physically punished three times by my parents, the atmosphere in my home was, much thank to my mother, very nice and generous (although strong negative feelings or complaints were not allowed) and very different from what some of the other kids were used to. So, when I started school I had the natural self confidence of a kid who has never been confronted with evil. And this is known to make abused kids furious. I did not even try to fight back effectively, when it was not just for fun, as fighting and wishing to hurt others was simply not part of my world. In many ways I was the most innocent victim you could imagine. I was too different from them to adjust to the new environment and start to abuse other kids myself. And I had no strategies to defend myself. I never learned to fight or fought back seriously even when I was later attacked by smaller kids. It just wasn%rsquot me. I noticed that other kids started crying when they were abused by bullies, so I did too, but it helped only for a while. Sometimes, when the physical abuse was very severe, I thought that if I just let it go on they would seriously hurt me so that the abuse became so obvious that someone would have to do something about it, but that never happened. Still I did not perceive myself as innocent or was consciously holding the other cheek. I did not understand that they were abused. If I had any thoughts about that, I probably just thought they lost their minds and didn%rsquot know what they did. That was because when they did not abuse me, most of them could be really nice. Still I was chocked and disgusted by their behavior.

: On basis of these observations, I suppose I should also ask how my reaction to the bullies%rsquo first attacks might have influenced them. Most likely, I would have avoided much of the bullying had I reacted differently. It might have helped if I had managed to just laugh at them, at least if I had managed to make them laugh too. And maybe it would also have worked if I had turned mad, fist fighting, kicking and screaming at them. If I had managed to hurt any of them this might have made them think twice before they attacked me again. But I also wonder what they thought about me and my reaction to their harassment. The other boy who was bullied, who was probably three years younger than me, was perceived as somewhat proud because he did not speak the local dialect and spoke in a way that somehow indicated that he considered himself very important. I did not act like that, but my speech might still have been somewhat different from the other boys%rsquo, as my mother did not speak the local dialect. It is also possible, that when I reacted with disgust to their behavior they might have perceived me as proud in some way, or at least different, as they were probably used to harassment from their homes and that the reaction they saw in my eyes reminded them of their own torments.

: Yes, %ldquothe curse of these often repeated rituals%rdquo still seems to weigh heavily on me, especially as I am still bullied. But %ldquostill%rdquo is not the right word here. I wasn%rsquot bullied for about 20 years; then it started at my workplace. Now it is obvious to me that much of this stuff is related to the heart chakra and I suppose it might have been from the beginning. The reason why I am bullied to day is obvious. I am very good at my job, while most of the bullies are not and I suspect they fear being exposed for incompetence. So they have to use other means to keep me back at their level of success %ndash or at least try to. As the present managers are also more or less involved they encourage the bullies to make accusations and tell them lies about me. This is a difficult situation. It does not help me if I manage to feel better %ndash I am still in their hands.

: all right your post seemed landed where yo expected, good trick!

: The classic solution would probably be to become a bully, too.
: Which You resisted, but have been lacking another answer as well.
: So much could be said, about the psychology of stupid villagers, but to what avail.

What you guys don't get, is that your superior attitude toward bullies, is itself a type of bullying. On an energetic, telepathic level, what you are putting out... judging people and standing on their heads to feel better about yourself...?

  Even pacifist Gandhi said "It is better to be violent, if there is violence in your heart, than to put on a cloak of non violence to cover impotence." These judgments and projections you send out, they are violence. Your thoughts have power. The worst violence of course, is to yourself, your own spirit... giving power away to other people to be God for you.

 Shadow, eh? What you think you are not. Us and them. We the special clever ones and the... what? Mundane masses of sheeple? An intellectual bully, is still a bully. We all choose the weapons that we have honed the sharpest.

: If i scan the Divine Beloved Higher Self Tandem, i arrive at: Love and Strength(ideally).

Personal integrity. The Buddha walks through the battlefield, unscathed. Arrows don't find him.  The key, is Grace... and like the song goes, humility is a huge part of that. Self created pedestals of ego superiority just don't fly.  Jesus washed feet.

 Chivalry is beautiful because there is truth in it. Follow your dharma, be true to what you know is right. Choose love over fear. Put yourself in service to what is greater than yourself; follow your soul, your discernment.  

  I have come to understand that FST level 2 is going to be a lot about personal integrity: stuff that to me seems common sense, but perhaps informed by a childhood spent reading Kipling and King Arthur.

 People don't understand the value of personal integrity, really being treu to yourself- to Goddess within you. As surrender to the K fire opens the taps and the energy behind your attention goes from a puddle to a fire hose, following your dharma becomes a matter of self preservation. The karmic feedback of aiming it at self pity or ego indulgence, just kicks too hard.

 The only control you have over the firehose, is where you choose to aim it, what you feed with the energy of your attention.

 You have no control over how other people choose to think of you. Fear, makes the attempt to control and the battle is joined: the power chakra games of the astral are all manifest as obsession... and the more you feed it, the bigger it gets until, hello psychosis!

 The path of clearing the power chakra, is victim stuff coming up to be surrendered, transcended... you rise above it, not to an ego pedestal, but to the heart. Not to control, but to love and accept your own reflection.

 Like with the faces that come up in the mirror game: you don't have to understand them or know where they came from or what they are. Just, love and acceptance, to integrate. You are All. There is no us and them.

 Blessings...

: Love could be talk; but first Love has to be Love; i have often or at least sometimes had the feeling that my love is just not strong enough, be maybe higher than other people's love, but not high enough, like with escape velocity(of rockets to leave earth gravity): below Ve. I have seen or heard of examples of people not too far away from me who had that gift; not in standard situations, but in special situations where they have never been before.
: Just talking difficult cases into playing along, educating them, assimilating them(5th).
: To signal other people you'd never go to the weapons is problematic; even if you would be ready to take out the axe, but signal you wouldn't, is not useful; "Saint" is a common swearword.
: To signal them a possible advantage for a consensual behavior and get them a glance of the bad cop too, might be an alley to more agreeability; you already manage this with dogs, probably you don't expect them on one level with you, but you find a common denominator and it works fine. Ought to be possible with various persons too. But mad people are more complex and we need a fuller strength and range of the Higher Self to manifest in the body, so that language/body language can be expressed credibly; so many examples by actors!( have you seen Mystress' Europe Gallery? She got this too, really!); so on my agenda i have:
: Grounding(seeking for relaxation/trance-breathing, tranced by Divine Beloved just before drawing the light down)
: Divine Beloved
: (Her) Shadow
: In the wake of this: getting thru the veil to Higher Self.

: give Yourself and the bullies the chance to know your true character, at least for my own part i'll try my best! Better Divine Beloved have Her way with me completely, than any crappy people; unconditional love is first of all for *All that Is*, which is Love again; so i have trust She won't lead me anywhere that grows hate and fear or any bullyship.

: : Now, lets se where this post lands! I try to put it where you tried to put the post cited below.

: : I have been trying to understand what those school yard bullies thought they did when torturing me. I don%rsquot think they fully understood what they did. Probably they thought it was some kind of funny game (role play), which was basically consensual, although they sometimes (read: always) freaked out and (as they might have said) %ldquotook it a little bit too far%rdquo.

: : But what did they think when they where at their worse? On many occasions, such as when the boy tackled me into the basin and accused me of having destroyed it, and of being a %ldquodestroyer%rdquo, I am rather sure they acted out some kind of script, most likely from situations where they had been abused or had other traumatic experiences. I suppose you are right when suggesting that many of these kids were abused, and they kind of %ldquopassed it on%rdquo to me.

: : On other occasions they were probably more aware of what they did. It was some kind of experiment. Testing the limits, copying events from pulp magazines or films, boosting and showing younger boys what could be done etc. E.g., I remember once there were two or three two or three years older boys holding my arms behind my back and holding me still while a smaller kid, who was one year younger than me, was punching my face with his fist over and over again, each time collecting his swings from far behind his back. (Maybe this younger boy was ashamed of what he did, because later (when I was 11 or 12) we made really good friends for several years, which made a major change in my life. In the weekends and holidays I often visited him in his village (and even lived there for periods), where the kids and adults of all ages kept together and were much nicer to each others than in my village. While playing with this kids I suddenly found out I was often the leader, as my friend was very popular and I was stronger and better on many sports than him and the other kids. This did a lot to my self confidence.)

: : The abuse often started as what at least looked like an innocent kids%rsquo game. Then it went out of hand. But sometimes I managed to stop it from going out of hand. This was when I was able to make the bullies laugh instead of getting furious, or whatever they did. This was rather late, when I was old enough to have some self esteem.

: : When it comes to me, I was mostly only confused. I was overwhelmed with unendurable pain and did not know what to think or what to do. Even if I was physically punished three times by my parents, the atmosphere in my home was, much thank to my mother, very nice and generous (although strong negative feelings or complaints were not allowed) and very different from what some of the other kids were used to. So, when I started school I had the natural self confidence of a kid who has never been confronted with evil. And this is known to make abused kids furious. I did not even try to fight back effectively, when it was not just for fun, as fighting and wishing to hurt others was simply not part of my world. In many ways I was the most innocent victim you could imagine. I was too different from them to adjust to the new environment and start to abuse other kids myself. And I had no strategies to defend myself. I never learned to fight or fought back seriously even when I was later attacked by smaller kids. It just wasn%rsquot me. I noticed that other kids started crying when they were abused by bullies, so I did too, but it helped only for a while. Sometimes, when the physical abuse was very severe, I thought that if I just let it go on they would seriously hurt me so that the abuse became so obvious that someone would have to do something about it, but that never happened. Still I did not perceive myself as innocent or was consciously holding the other cheek. I did not understand that they were abused. If I had any thoughts about that, I probably just thought they lost their minds and didn%rsquot know what they did. That was because when they did not abuse me, most of them could be really nice. Still I was chocked and disgusted by their behavior.

: : On basis of these observations, I suppose I should also ask how my reaction to the bullies%rsquo first attacks might have influenced them. Most likely, I would have avoided much of the bullying had I reacted differently. It might have helped if I had managed to just laugh at them, at least if I had managed to make them laugh too. And maybe it would also have worked if I had turned mad, fist fighting, kicking and screaming at them. If I had managed to hurt any of them this might have made them think twice before they attacked me again. But I also wonder what they thought about me and my reaction to their harassment. The other boy who was bullied, who was probably three years younger than me, was perceived as somewhat proud because he did not speak the local dialect and spoke in a way that somehow indicated that he considered himself very important. I did not act like that, but my speech might still have been somewhat different from the other boys%rsquo, as my mother did not speak the local dialect. It is also possible, that when I reacted with disgust to their behavior they might have perceived me as proud in some way, or at least different, as they were probably used to harassment from their homes and that the reaction they saw in my eyes reminded them of their own torments.

: : Yes, %ldquothe curse of these often repeated rituals%rdquo still seems to weigh heavily on me, especially as I am still bullied. But %ldquostill%rdquo is not the right word here. I wasn%rsquot bullied for about 20 years; then it started at my workplace. Now it is obvious to me that much of this stuff is related to the heart chakra and I suppose it might have been from the beginning. The reason why I am bullied to day is obvious. I am very good at my job, while most of the bullies are not and I suspect they fear being exposed for incompetence. So they have to use other means to keep me back at their level of success %ndash or at least try to. As the present managers are also more or less involved they encourage the bullies to make accusations and tell them lies about me. This is a difficult situation. It does not help me if I manage to feel better %ndash I am still in their hands.

Wow! This IS a funny board! Actually, I tried to put this answer to your post above my latest post (where you tried to put your), but instead it ended up right above your latest post! ;) So I concluded there is a reason why our discussion has been redirected to another part of the thread. And it is true that our discussion has taken another turn with these latest posts. I have dealt with my childhood bullying on many levels and kind of passed on to my present situation. A lot of feelings have come up. After my last therapy session, my yoga therapist told there has been a solution to the bullying memories in my subconscious, so that they will not interfere so much with my life in the future. Then I also concluded that there is a reason why our posts ended up exactly where they did. Therefore, I read my latest post in this part of the thread again. Today, the meaning of my vision of a dark corridor and of men in black suits is rather obvious, I think. I met those men at my mother%rsquos funeral a week ago. And indeed, the grief from loosing my mother is like a dark corridor I have to pass through.

Now, the rest of my last post in this %ldquonew%rdquo part of the thread was about DB and female versus male elements in the subconscious. DB is also a major element in your last post. At my last therapy session, my therapist advised me a meditation to balance the male and female elements of my subconscious (I haven%rsquot started practicing it yet). This morning, while practicing yoga, I had a vision where I was sitting in a small hollow. Right in front of me appeared a magnificent cobra. It might best be described as speckled orange-colored. First I was scared. I looked to the left; there was another similar, maybe somewhat smaller snake. Then I thought I had to just keep very still and relax, trust that the snakes would not harm me (actually the thought crossed my mind: %ldquoThis works in visions, but will it work in reality?%rdquo). Then I looked to the right. There was no snake, and for some reason that felt kind of %ldquoempty%rdquo. The meaning of this appears as rather obvious: the left snake (Pingala) is more active than the right (Ida), which symbolizes female qualities. The first snake is the kundalini. Last night, before I went to sleep, I had a vision of a girl kind of trying to manifest for my inner vision. This was rather subtle, but she had a kind of power of her own, which made her strike out as different from normal products of my imagination. So, I hope this is DB starting to manifest at the visual level. She is very welcome indeed!

The solution you describe %ndash Love and Strength (ideally) %ndash is probably very adequate for my present bullying situation. This is also the root of my problem, I believe. I have been a teacher for many years. When I first started teaching I was 20 years old. I got a few occasional assignments as substitute teacher at some extremely turbulent elementary schools, where it seemed as if the other teachers needed substitute teachers as a kind of psychological barrier towards the uncontrolled teenagers we tried to teach. At first I was shocked by the lack of order and the indecent behavior the kids exposed. I tried to listen to advices, but they only made my discipline problems worse. Then, eventually I started to control my own reactions instead, and things changed a lot. Basically, I just relaxed, let go of my fear and started to trust the pupils and treat them as if they were the pupils I wanted them to be. Then they started to live up to my expectations. Basically, when I started to treat them as responsible adults they started to behave as such. Therefore, when I started to teach at the university, I had no problems to comfortably slip into the teacher role. Actually I got very popular with the students right from the start. The bullies have often defamed me amongst the students, but they never managed to get my student evaluations below normal figures. (One funny thing: Las semester I did very well as a teacher but at the end of the semester there was a massive defamation campaign resulting in evaluation figures only somewhat above normal. This semester, my course was heavily defamed from the beginning and some students even quit because of the intense slander right at the beginning. This semester I have felt really bad (intense yogic practices, cleansing and severe problems with my sleep) and performed rather mediocre as a teacher. Still I got top figures, better then in many years, in the evaluation.)

So, the solution is not to become a bully, but to show both Love and Strength. As a young teacher I hade some basic strength, following from my formal position and from the fact that I was a few (3-8) years older than most of my pupils (I also had older pupils, but then there were no severe discipline problems). At the university I have my formal position as a PhD, professor and holder of a chair for many years. I am older then some of my bullies, but probably younger than most of them. Still, this does not matter so much. What really matters in this place is the informal hierarchy. And this is basically at the root of my problem.

In many ways, I am the natural leader at my work-place. (This will sound as I am boosting, but it is an essential part of the picture.) My productivity and reputation as a scientist are outstanding. Virtually everybody are coping my ideas in teaching and often also in science. The main courses in my area (with hundreds of students) were basically created on basis of my ideas 15 years ago. My formal plans for the course I was in charge of about ten years ago are still used and have been copied by virtually all other courses at the work-place. They don%rsquot use any of my text books any more, but the stipulated goals for the students are still those I once wrote on bases of my text book on methodology in our area, which was the standard book in this area for about 10 years (until a few years after I was heavily defamed about ten years ago). When I was once allowed to become a low level manager, I created what was probably the first and this far also the last functional teem of teachers at this work-place and got very popular amongst the teachers. At meetings, I often have a lot of ideas which are most often bought by the others. Now and them, my colleagues later present my ideas as their own. So, what the informal leaders fear is that I will automatically take their position when I manage to get out of the bullying cage they have managed to manipulate me into.

So my problem is, how can I show strength in a position where I am heavily defamed and low level personnel are even encouraged to report everything I ever say or do as some kind of harassment or at least not politically correct to the managers and actually feel safe enough to do so to? Even the people that like me never dare to say so; instead they play the same game as the others, pretending I am some kind of asocial monster. Of course, there are a few glimpses of hope in the misery. My appointed victim at the major event I have been accused of is giving me some support. And the higher self negotiation with the girl who has accused me the most showed me she is actually in love with me. But they would probably not dare to speak up even if I managed to convince this other girl to support me too. There is also a young course manager who has recently decided to use two of my books at his course, although I am not sure of his motives or of how he is handling the criticism that might follow from the bullies. Maybe I should try to initiate a conversation with the people in charge of my old course, which I criticized heavily at two meetings late last semester and early this semester. At least I might have scared them a little bit.

I don%rsquot know if any of my bullies and their bystanders is mad in the traditional sense. Some of them give the impression that they might be psychopaths though. But bullying is in itself a kind of madness. The bullies project the %ldquobad person%rdquo label upon me (as they did on others before me), and they manage to get everyone, partly even me, caught up in their projections. People start to imagine things that I am supposed to have done or said, but which are only fantasies. They tell others about it and then a rumor is created, which is after some time transformed into a truth (or The Truth) in a lot of peoples heads. Thus the madness grows over the years. This makes it difficult to show them my true character. It has been there for them to se all the time, but they just don%rsquot want to. They only se their own projections instead.

Therefore, I do indeed need to be convincing in my behavior. I can%rsquot allow myself to be confused by crazy accusations; because they will interpret confusion (or any emotional reaction) as a token of guilt. Funny you speak about actors here. Two weeks ago I participated in an acting performance course, where we where taught to connect to our %ldquotrue%rdquo inner feelings and act in a %ldquotrue%rdquo way from there. This course was very intense and brought up a lot of suppressed feelings. The love aspect does strike me as an equally severe problem. My heart chakra is often really active, overwhelming me with feelings of love. It should be enough for this, I hope. The major risk is probably that it would shut down if things do not go so well. At least I will have to deal with some other aspects before this becomes a problem.

Posted by Mystress on May 25, 2007 at 00:21:19:
In Reply to: Re: Mirror Game / DB Shadow posted by jugaen on May 24, 2007 at 15:49:04:
What you guys don't get, is that your superior attitude toward bullies, is itself a type of bullying. On an energetic, telepathic level, what you are putting out... judging people and standing on their heads to feel better about yourself...?

- So, we take a superior attitude? I did not realize this and it is certainly not intended. I don%rsquot intend to judge anyone; I only feel a need to actually handle the situation on the physical level. As you say in one lesson; %ldquotie up your camels%rdquo. But I suppose there are quite a few pit holes to fall into when you try to describe a situation objectively in which you are emotionally involved. If I was trying to judge others and stand on their heads to feel better about myself, I wasn%rsquot aware of it. And it certainly didn%rsquot work, nor did I expect it to.

Thank You Mystress for Your timely beautiful words of wisdom of which i seemed to be so much in need.
They have started to work, which is still in progress.
It is also coincident that You named chivalry and King Arthur: since my last post i had started to read Deepak Chopra's The Way Of The Wizard, about Merlin and Arthur, The Grail, etc., it has rested unread in the shelves for a long time, since it is in French and went tedious to read... but now i had risen above this, and like it very much...just by the way.

: : all right your post seemed landed where yo expected, good trick!

: : The classic solution would probably be to become a bully, too.
: : Which You resisted, but have been lacking another answer as well.
: : So much could be said, about the psychology of stupid villagers, but to what avail.

: What you guys don't get, is that your superior attitude toward bullies, is itself a type of bullying. On an energetic, telepathic level, what you are putting out... judging people and standing on their heads to feel better about yourself...?

:    Even pacifist Gandhi said "It is better to be violent, if there is violence in your heart, than to put on a cloak of non violence to cover impotence." These judgments and projections you send out, they are violence. Your thoughts have power. The worst violence of course, is to yourself, your own spirit... giving power away to other people to be God for you.

:   Shadow, eh? What you think you are not. Us and them. We the special clever ones and the... what? Mundane masses of sheeple? An intellectual bully, is still a bully. We all choose the weapons that we have honed the sharpest.

:  
: : If i scan the Divine Beloved Higher Self Tandem, i arrive at: Love and Strength(ideally).
:  
: Personal integrity. The Buddha walks through the battlefield, unscathed. Arrows don't find him.  The key, is Grace... and like the song goes, humility is a huge part of that. Self created pedestals of ego superiority just don't fly.  Jesus washed feet.

:   Chivalry is beautiful because there is truth in it. Follow your dharma, be true to what you know is right. Choose love over fear. Put yourself in service to what is greater than yourself; follow your soul, your discernment.  

:    I have come to understand that FST level 2 is going to be a lot about personal integrity: stuff that to me seems common sense, but perhaps informed by a childhood spent reading Kipling and King Arthur.

:   People don't understand the value of personal integrity, really being treu to yourself- to Goddess within you. As surrender to the K fire opens the taps and the energy behind your attention goes from a puddle to a fire hose, following your dharma becomes a matter of self preservation. The karmic feedback of aiming it at self pity or ego indulgence, just kicks too hard.

:   The only control you have over the firehose, is where you choose to aim it, what you feed with the energy of your attention.

:   You have no control over how other people choose to think of you. Fear, makes the attempt to control and the battle is joined: the power chakra games of the astral are all manifest as obsession... and the more you feed it, the bigger it gets until, hello psychosis!

:   The path of clearing the power chakra, is victim stuff coming up to be surrendered, transcended... you rise above it, not to an ego pedestal, but to the heart. Not to control, but to love and accept your own reflection.

:   Like with the faces that come up in the mirror game: you don't have to understand them or know where they came from or what they are. Just, love and acceptance, to integrate. You are All. There is no us and them.

:   Blessings...

Vyana, i think i have to take this on my cap alone, since it was me who used the term "stupid villagers"; this was meant partly ironic, since i have myself a lot of a 'stupid villager' within me; i think it's a common term, certainly a term of judgement, however mostly ironic and not so much on the bad part side, rather grey zone, and i didn't want to judge it further so i did without quotation marks.
This formulation however must have given our discussion a pointed aspect, maybe provocative, so Mystress jumped in.
Now the amazing thing, is She's absolutely making points; Her comments giving me so much to think and correct myself!

Because regardless, of how much intellectual superiority claim of any of us might be involved, there is still this 'us and them thing', the advice to rise above victim stuff/power chakra..to the heart, and lots of hints, never expressed so tangibly; so i get over the sticks easily thanking Her for all these carrots!

: Posted by Mystress on May 25, 2007 at 00:21:19:
: In Reply to: Re: Mirror Game / DB Shadow posted by jugaen on May 24, 2007 at 15:49:04:
: What you guys don't get, is that your superior attitude toward bullies, is itself a type of bullying. On an energetic, telepathic level, what you are putting out... judging people and standing on their heads to feel better about yourself...?

: - So, we take a superior attitude? I did not realize this and it is certainly not intended. I don%rsquot intend to judge anyone; I only feel a need to actually handle the situation on the physical level. As you say in one lesson; %ldquotie up your camels%rdquo. But I suppose there are quite a few pit holes to fall into when you try to describe a situation objectively in which you are emotionally involved. If I was trying to judge others and stand on their heads to feel better about myself, I wasn%rsquot aware of it. And it certainly didn%rsquot work, nor did I expect it to.

Now, that i sort of meditated about Mystress's last post, i found that i seem to be missing the centre, in my latest post, and i have been very uppish there.
What i also had in mind but didn't mention, is the other side: that bully-boys have as much reason or no reason to be uppish as the violence-shunning intellectuals; now here it is.
This has been clear to me for many years, since my dad (proudly) related a story of a clashing of two groups in pre-nazi germany, one communists, one nazis, where the nazis had the (violent)initiative and the communists somewhat got the worst of it.
Knowing my own temperament near to the communists i was aware since then i'm lacking s.th., that i would have still some audacity to achieve or like i call it now: to integrate.

From the perspective of ALL, we should accept that we have made this world principally violent, with death, one eating the other, different types of intimidations and individuals of these types, so firstly we have to take responsibility for all of this.
And there is a certain balance, so that free will of all individuals has an exercise field to train, to eventually become a good servant of their Divine beloveds.

Scientists are no exceptions since science has emerged as an appendix of militarism and always stayed there, (hi Mr. Einstein).
And all tyrannic types(except Mr.Gandhi and a few) had in common to reject that responsibility, Einstein for one 'made in peace movement' after promoting the bomb, giving completely the innocent child.. and so have most.

So from Goddess perspective we caused that separation, and at some point it is time to heal this, which is as soon as we submit to our better halfs.
This is what i understand so far by integration.

Historically it also appears, that it's time for change not only on singular individual levels, but on many individual levels, since technology advances into incontrollable dimensions and balance cannot be held longer under the old paradigm.
Now it goes without saying that scientists can be bully-boys and bully-boys be scientists(girls please find your respective places).
But integration only works thru certain secondary conditions, like humility, personal integrity, so this will not turn into super-bullies.
There is only one axiom i have to accept: that Goddess has it handled, that empowered individuals won't go destructive, that i wouldn't go destructive.
That integrated tyrants become pacifists.

Dealing with scheming colleagues would show up as healing o.s. and would be done by consulting Love, an all knowing resource of a much greater background than the brain.

What we finally do can certainly include the physical plane, the difference is that we no more need to rack our brains over this.

Thus, we have the power chakra vs heart: "rise above it...to the heart"!
The heart chakra is the place of integration (and growth) situated between the 3rd and the 5th.
The 3rd becomes the energy of our attention, where to aim the 'firehose'; the 3rd comes from being a puddle and is replaced by the vast energy of the firehose...
...obviously the Unconscious, The Divine Beloved, to Who free will has been surrendered to.
Since considering Mystress' post i have centered my general focus to the chest/heart region and have found it greatly beneficient. Stomach troubles have subsided together with throat issues, with a feeling of peace and fearlessness. Just like a grounding effect. Even legs feel more grounded, tingling.
I guess you have already made some moves to this since early school time, so keep to the good work!

: Wow! This IS a funny board! Actually, I tried to put this answer to your post above my latest post (where you tried to put your), but instead it ended up right above your latest post! ;) So I concluded there is a reason why our discussion has been redirected to another part of the thread. And it is true that our discussion has taken another turn with these latest posts. I have dealt with my childhood bullying on many levels and kind of passed on to my present situation. A lot of feelings have come up. After my last therapy session, my yoga therapist told there has been a solution to the bullying memories in my subconscious, so that they will not interfere so much with my life in the future. Then I also concluded that there is a reason why our posts ended up exactly where they did. Therefore, I read my latest post in this part of the thread again. Today, the meaning of my vision of a dark corridor and of men in black suits is rather obvious, I think. I met those men at my mother%rsquos funeral a week ago. And indeed, the grief from loosing my mother is like a dark corridor I have to pass through.

: Now, the rest of my last post in this %ldquonew%rdquo part of the thread was about DB and female versus male elements in the subconscious. DB is also a major element in your last post. At my last therapy session, my therapist advised me a meditation to balance the male and female elements of my subconscious (I haven%rsquot started practicing it yet). This morning, while practicing yoga, I had a vision where I was sitting in a small hollow. Right in front of me appeared a magnificent cobra. It might best be described as speckled orange-colored. First I was scared. I looked to the left; there was another similar, maybe somewhat smaller snake. Then I thought I had to just keep very still and relax, trust that the snakes would not harm me (actually the thought crossed my mind: %ldquoThis works in visions, but will it work in reality?%rdquo). Then I looked to the right. There was no snake, and for some reason that felt kind of %ldquoempty%rdquo. The meaning of this appears as rather obvious: the left snake (Pingala) is more active than the right (Ida), which symbolizes female qualities. The first snake is the kundalini. Last night, before I went to sleep, I had a vision of a girl kind of trying to manifest for my inner vision. This was rather subtle, but she had a kind of power of her own, which made her strike out as different from normal products of my imagination. So, I hope this is DB starting to manifest at the visual level. She is very welcome indeed!

: The solution you describe %ndash Love and Strength (ideally) %ndash is probably very adequate for my present bullying situation. This is also the root of my problem, I believe. I have been a teacher for many years. When I first started teaching I was 20 years old. I got a few occasional assignments as substitute teacher at some extremely turbulent elementary schools, where it seemed as if the other teachers needed substitute teachers as a kind of psychological barrier towards the uncontrolled teenagers we tried to teach. At first I was shocked by the lack of order and the indecent behavior the kids exposed. I tried to listen to advices, but they only made my discipline problems worse. Then, eventually I started to control my own reactions instead, and things changed a lot. Basically, I just relaxed, let go of my fear and started to trust the pupils and treat them as if they were the pupils I wanted them to be. Then they started to live up to my expectations. Basically, when I started to treat them as responsible adults they started to behave as such. Therefore, when I started to teach at the university, I had no problems to comfortably slip into the teacher role. Actually I got very popular with the students right from the start. The bullies have often defamed me amongst the students, but they never managed to get my student evaluations below normal figures. (One funny thing: Las semester I did very well as a teacher but at the end of the semester there was a massive defamation campaign resulting in evaluation figures only somewhat above normal. This semester, my course was heavily defamed from the beginning and some students even quit because of the intense slander right at the beginning. This semester I have felt really bad (intense yogic practices, cleansing and severe problems with my sleep) and performed rather mediocre as a teacher. Still I got top figures, better then in many years, in the evaluation.)

: So, the solution is not to become a bully, but to show both Love and Strength. As a young teacher I hade some basic strength, following from my formal position and from the fact that I was a few (3-8) years older than most of my pupils (I also had older pupils, but then there were no severe discipline problems). At the university I have my formal position as a PhD, professor and holder of a chair for many years. I am older then some of my bullies, but probably younger than most of them. Still, this does not matter so much. What really matters in this place is the informal hierarchy. And this is basically at the root of my problem.

: In many ways, I am the natural leader at my work-place. (This will sound as I am boosting, but it is an essential part of the picture.) My productivity and reputation as a scientist are outstanding. Virtually everybody are coping my ideas in teaching and often also in science. The main courses in my area (with hundreds of students) were basically created on basis of my ideas 15 years ago. My formal plans for the course I was in charge of about ten years ago are still used and have been copied by virtually all other courses at the work-place. They don%rsquot use any of my text books any more, but the stipulated goals for the students are still those I once wrote on bases of my text book on methodology in our area, which was the standard book in this area for about 10 years (until a few years after I was heavily defamed about ten years ago). When I was once allowed to become a low level manager, I created what was probably the first and this far also the last functional teem of teachers at this work-place and got very popular amongst the teachers. At meetings, I often have a lot of ideas which are most often bought by the others. Now and them, my colleagues later present my ideas as their own. So, what the informal leaders fear is that I will automatically take their position when I manage to get out of the bullying cage they have managed to manipulate me into.

: So my problem is, how can I show strength in a position where I am heavily defamed and low level personnel are even encouraged to report everything I ever say or do as some kind of harassment or at least not politically correct to the managers and actually feel safe enough to do so to? Even the people that like me never dare to say so; instead they play the same game as the others, pretending I am some kind of asocial monster. Of course, there are a few glimpses of hope in the misery. My appointed victim at the major event I have been accused of is giving me some support. And the higher self negotiation with the girl who has accused me the most showed me she is actually in love with me. But they would probably not dare to speak up even if I managed to convince this other girl to support me too. There is also a young course manager who has recently decided to use two of my books at his course, although I am not sure of his motives or of how he is handling the criticism that might follow from the bullies. Maybe I should try to initiate a conversation with the people in charge of my old course, which I criticized heavily at two meetings late last semester and early this semester. At least I might have scared them a little bit.

: I don%rsquot know if any of my bullies and their bystanders is mad in the traditional sense. Some of them give the impression that they might be psychopaths though. But bullying is in itself a kind of madness. The bullies project the %ldquobad person%rdquo label upon me (as they did on others before me), and they manage to get everyone, partly even me, caught up in their projections. People start to imagine things that I am supposed to have done or said, but which are only fantasies. They tell others about it and then a rumor is created, which is after some time transformed into a truth (or The Truth) in a lot of peoples heads. Thus the madness grows over the years. This makes it difficult to show them my true character. It has been there for them to se all the time, but they just don%rsquot want to. They only se their own projections instead.

: Therefore, I do indeed need to be convincing in my behavior. I can%rsquot allow myself to be confused by crazy accusations; because they will interpret confusion (or any emotional reaction) as a token of guilt. Funny you speak about actors here. Two weeks ago I participated in an acting performance course, where we where taught to connect to our %ldquotrue%rdquo inner feelings and act in a %ldquotrue%rdquo way from there. This course was very intense and brought up a lot of suppressed feelings. The love aspect does strike me as an equally severe problem. My heart chakra is often really active, overwhelming me with feelings of love. It should be enough for this, I hope. The major risk is probably that it would shut down if things do not go so well. At least I will have to deal with some other aspects before this becomes a problem.

: Posted by Mystress on May 25, 2007 at 00:21:19:
: In Reply to: Re: Mirror Game / DB Shadow posted by jugaen on May 24, 2007 at 15:49:04:

Search the archives, re-read your posts about bullying as if they belong to someone else... someone you don't like or trust.

 We did go through this, my asking the other students impressions of a post you wrote. You were not willing to accept any of it.

 It is a natural reaction eh? The child goes "Waaaah, why don't they like me? Then soothes the wounded ego with the comforting explanation: "Because they suck! Losers!" ..

 The grapes are probably sour anyway, said the fox in the fable...

 Yeah, you take a superior attitude... and as the Japanese say, "the nail that sticks up, gets hammered down."  

 You will get it eventually. I have faith. Blessings...  

: - So, we take a superior attitude? I did not realize this and it is certainly not intended. I don%rsquot intend to judge anyone; I only feel a need to actually handle the situation on the physical level. As you say in one lesson; %ldquotie up your camels%rdquo. But I suppose there are quite a few pit holes to fall into when you try to describe a situation objectively in which you are emotionally involved. If I was trying to judge others and stand on their heads to feel better about myself, I wasn%rsquot aware of it. And it certainly didn%rsquot work, nor did I expect it to.

Somehow, I would like to get back to the core of my childhood bullying experience, which is more important for me, at least right now, than any dimension of relationship with or attitude towards bullies. There was something here, which I don%rsquot remember or understand correctly, although the discussion here has been really helpful. Somehow, my reaction to the bullying was not only or even primarily %ldquoWhy do you do this to me?%rdquo but maybe even more of %ldquoWhy do you do this to yourself?%rdquo. And when I did not defend myself effectively when it would have taken causing harm or pain to the bullies, this behavior came so natural to me that I just can%rsquot believe I had got it all wrong. Mystress has suggested that the bullies%rsquo behavior was normal amongst boys, testing their strength on each other. Still, I don%rsquot think it was normal. It was simply too extreme. A lot of kids were really hurt fir life at that school. It%rsquos like relationships between dogs or other animals. A dog doesn%rsquot hurt another dog if there is not something very wrong with it. The puppies are playing, but they don%rsquot hurt each other. Today, I also have two kids at school (and before they spent many years at kindergartens) and it seems that such things as took place at that school yard when I was a boy never happen. For a while there was one kid attacking other kids physically, but she was sick. Therefore, I would suggest that a normal, healthy human being has some kind of blockage, of the same kind that dogs do have, which keep them from harming other people.